Angel Michael
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rob
Active member
Greetings Grunion
I can't find your statement "Trinity Doctrine 101 says Father, Son & Holy Spirit are ONE POWER, ONE MIND."
No Such statement in EGW writings?
EGW: "We are to realize that if we work the works of Christ, we will not unite with the world. The Holy Spirit will give us a clear, distinct message to the world. If we will come into close relation to Christ, we shall have a part to act in carrying forward the work of present truth for this time. We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God. But when a man goes forth in human sufficiency, then the enemy comes in and inspires him, and he knows not what manner of spirit he is of. The Lord saw this and instructed me that, at the General Conference held in Oakland, I should hold no conversation with you. {Lt253a-1903.18
You claim trinity doctrine 101 says the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have one mind.
I cannot find any reference to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have one mind?
When you post your statements they must be verified as inspired writings, otherwise as SDA we do not endorse them, and that includes pioneers writings like Uriah Smith and even James White. I cannot verify your statements?
Going to a Catholic trinity website:
The Holy Trinity, a cornerstone of Catholic doctrine, illustrates One God in three distinct Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Rob: agree.
This belief is rooted in Scripture and Tradition, emphasizing that while each person of the Trinity is distinct, they are all fully and completely God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit coexist in a relationship of perfect love, which is the essence of God's nature.
Rob: agree.
Deeper details:
The Council of Florence in 1438 explains: 'The Holy Spirit is eternally from Father and Son; He has his nature and subsistence at once (simul) from the Father and the Son. He proceeds eternally from both as from one principle and through one spiration... And, since the Father has through generation given to the only-begotten Son everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom he is eternally born, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son.' [Council of Florence (1439): DS 1300-1301.]"
Rob: Weird? “If Eloihym as a family godhead is a mystery, why does the Catholic trinity try to detail it - logically their above statement makes no sense?
"In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: 'substance', 'person' or 'hypostasis', 'relation' and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, 'infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand'. [Paul VI, CPC # 2.]"
Rob: so if Godhead details is a mystery why try to explain it?
"The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the 'consubstantial Trinity'. [Council of Constantinople II (553): DS 421.] The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: 'The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God.' [Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 530:26.] In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), 'Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.' [Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 804.]"
Rob: This makes no sense. If each person is fully Divine of the same Divinity as other persons, than we have three persons of Divinity. How does this become one Divinity? Grunion has shown me before EGW publishes ELohiym as three persons and three beings in EGW writings. So in SDA view we have three beings with deity powers of divinity. We have three "el" powers.
The Catholic view has one being as three distinct persons? Is this a play on words ? So how does the Catholic view see the "el" names used in Scripture? You cannot make three "el" into one "el" - this can only be done by "echad".
I take the Catholic details do not use “echad” or compound unity theme?
Whereas I would use the idea that love comes in personalities of love, that when united become a single flow of love. Hence in my coping view, no person of Elohiym can be independent from the other in terms of powers. Such independence is the very definition of sin. This view makes the Heavenly Family Divinity different from Pagan Family creature powers; where both are referenced as “elohiym”.
254. "The divine persons are really distinct from one another. 'God is one but not solitary.' [Fides Damasi: DS 71.] 'Father', 'Son', 'Holy Spirit' are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: '
Rob: Yes, OK so how is Catholic trinity any different from my view of Elohiym ?
255. "The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another:
Rob: Yes
256. "St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called 'the Theologian', entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith . . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites.
Rob” Hmm? I do not see this idea. My two pennies is the infinity set is switched off in some persons of love, just as the simile of comparing gender man to gender woman. I see the HS/ Shadday as feminine ahabah love, and the Father/Eloah as masculine ahab love - these relate to functions of love - not biological similes we humans have.
259. "..the whole Christian life is a communion with each of the divine persons, without in any way separating them.
Rob: Yes
Can you Grunion detail your view of Trinity and how your view is different to mine?
In your reply, I do not get your discussion at all?
Shalom
rob
Active member
Greetings LeRoy
SO you are saying by faith the Father is lived through the Son who responded to that faith in His Father?
I can accept that because simile we have Jesus live in us by faith as we respond to Jesus our Saviour.
I get the impression faith is the way heavenly powers flow, and Divinity itself is never independent, always connected and supporting each other. This is why the three divine powers cannot be considered as pagan powers, because they love and flow in and through each other. So the three Divine Powers function as One flow of support.
rob
Active member
Grunion said :"This creature christ, according to Ellen White could have sinned and lost it's salvation. Ellen was specific that the divinity that creature christ possessed was ONLY because it was staying within the Father's holy law - if creature christ didn't behave like 'God' then the loaned power creature christ had would have been extracted. This is anti-Trinitarianism Le Roy.
I do not agree with your logic Grunion.
Jesus-YHWH is a fully deity as Father-YHWH.
However they operate in the universe of love through faith - never independent of the other.
To do so is by definition SIN.
Technically in absolute terms, creature cannot SIN, because they cannot be independent in an absolute sense,
but Deity powers can sin, by do powers on their own, using self inherit powers.
When the creature angel broke faith in the Father, he wanted independent power - he hate this idea of doing things by faith in a Divine power - he wanted to be his own source of power.
So the Father engineered this for Lucifer and gave him a self of independent power. This power we call self.
When this rebellion fully developed, the Father banished Luficer to earth and left the earth in darkness.
Later the Son and the Father had a meeting and decided to allow this independent power to fully demonstrate itself.
SO the Son via the Father via the HS created a finely tuned universe around earth with function and dysfunction in mind.
He put humans on it to serve as witness to this self power.
Later this self power managed to trick Eve and Adam into becoming self powers - their powers of self are given to the humans via faith in the Satan Provider automatically - as if forced on them.
On the other hand God's love as power is not like that - it flows in you only if you ask for it.
Jesus went to earth in the power of faith in His Father, showing humans how a sinless world runs : always by faith.
Now when the tempter tempted Divinity to SIN, this is possible because Jesus-YHWH has independent powers of Divinity apart from the Father - but Jesus refused. Love is never independent.
Jesus-YHWH could have broken faith but He chose not to. The 144,000 humans will experience the same problem,
They will be fully imputed with Divine Power from Jesus, yet have the free will to break faith. They choose not to.
You are trying to say the 144,000 have less Jesus in them than the real Jesus? What are you saying?
Some relationships can be deeper than others, but divine relationships are more superior.
You do not understand how faith as a process of support works and thus you think Jesus was different to the Father in terms of power? Again I don't follow you - you write too briefly.
Now I hope this helps us discuss - I am not pushing anything on you - I just want a fair discussion.
Shalom
I do not agree with your logic Grunion.
Jesus-YHWH is a fully deity as Father-YHWH.
However they operate in the universe of love through faith - never independent of the other.
To do so is by definition SIN.
Technically in absolute terms, creature cannot SIN, because they cannot be independent in an absolute sense,
but Deity powers can sin, by do powers on their own, using self inherit powers.
When the creature angel broke faith in the Father, he wanted independent power - he hate this idea of doing things by faith in a Divine power - he wanted to be his own source of power.
So the Father engineered this for Lucifer and gave him a self of independent power. This power we call self.
When this rebellion fully developed, the Father banished Luficer to earth and left the earth in darkness.
Later the Son and the Father had a meeting and decided to allow this independent power to fully demonstrate itself.
SO the Son via the Father via the HS created a finely tuned universe around earth with function and dysfunction in mind.
He put humans on it to serve as witness to this self power.
Later this self power managed to trick Eve and Adam into becoming self powers - their powers of self are given to the humans via faith in the Satan Provider automatically - as if forced on them.
On the other hand God's love as power is not like that - it flows in you only if you ask for it.
Jesus went to earth in the power of faith in His Father, showing humans how a sinless world runs : always by faith.
Now when the tempter tempted Divinity to SIN, this is possible because Jesus-YHWH has independent powers of Divinity apart from the Father - but Jesus refused. Love is never independent.
Jesus-YHWH could have broken faith but He chose not to. The 144,000 humans will experience the same problem,
They will be fully imputed with Divine Power from Jesus, yet have the free will to break faith. They choose not to.
You are trying to say the 144,000 have less Jesus in them than the real Jesus? What are you saying?
Some relationships can be deeper than others, but divine relationships are more superior.
You do not understand how faith as a process of support works and thus you think Jesus was different to the Father in terms of power? Again I don't follow you - you write too briefly.
Now I hope this helps us discuss - I am not pushing anything on you - I just want a fair discussion.
Shalom
Scripture is explicit that God can't commit any form of sin and Ellen White was explicit that God the Son COULD HAVE SINNED. Scripture is explicit that Michael the archangel is not (and was not ever) God the Son yet Ellen White maintained with feverish velocity that Christ was Michael the archangel and that Michael was "LIKE GOD".
In addition to all of this People during Ellen Whit's life clearly understood Ellen's spirit of prophecy to condemn / rebuke the Doctrine of the Trinity. Up to the point of the Ellen's death she never once rebuked the anti-Trinitarian SDA Church or said "we were wrong" or "I was mistaken".
In the contrary, anti-Trinitarian incantations kept pouring out of Ellen's mouth until the day of her passing.
You are either Trinitarian OR YOU ARE NOT...
...Twice now you've admitted you are NOT.
This would be like you asking me if I believed in the Resurrection of Christ 3 days after He died on the Cross - and I come back with "I HOLD NO VIEW EITHER WAY". Anyone who would read that statement would say I don't believe in the Resurrection. The Trinity is the single most important Doctrine in Christianity - everything is based off of it.
It's somewhat stunning to me that despite this thread getting hundreds of views the only two Seventh-day Adventists who were brave enough to respond BOTH admit they don't affirm the Trinity Doctrine but are eager to push concepts developed by Ellen White which contradict Scripture. I've got to say Le Roy, despite you and Rob being non-Trinitarian you at least have the courage to discuss the topic.
rob
Active member
Greetings Grunion
Jas 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
This refers to using a false elohiym power while you are are living in the true elohiym power. God cannot / would not do such a thing / when creatures have no inherent power in themselves.
Nu 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
This refers to WORDS, and since words come with power, God's words are true and powerful and stable.
What God says is His Word. The moral law is ten words of faith and they are the foundation of all things.
Faith means to support the Divine powers. There are two Hebrew words for love not one as we assume love to be, so love is a relational power.
Mt 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
The Greek word tempter implies Jesus was living under the true elohiym power as a human can by faith in God.
While human faith in God is able to move mountains into the sea, I have never seen or heard any human able to have such faith. Was this creature asking for such a demonstration of faith, since he lived by faith himself once for billions of years? or was the creature asking God to be independent and use Divine power the creature knew he had inside of him, but refused to use? That is my question? Do you agree?
Catholic trinity has 3 persons in 1 - OK so the Devil was asking Jesus to be an independent person, making two gods - using his own deity power- but the Son refused? Get my big question now?
Catholic trinity has Jesus as a person, so how does EGW differ from Catholic view of this ? Why can't you answer my question? You cannot debate in Catholic forums, everything is monologue so how on earth are we supposed to know what the word trinity even means?
Your claim "anti-Trinitarian incantations" come out of EGW - OK such as what ? And please post her messages that are inspired? NOT uninspired pioneer opinions like you do.
You did not discuss my discussion, what is the difference between Catholic trinity and SDA trinity?
My two pennies reading video details from Catholic speakers is
(1) Elohiym is a Family Deity.
Funny Catholic acknowledge this simile but do not use this idea in practice? Why not?
(2) The HS is the Shadday/ expressing femining love "ahabah"
Catholic treat the HS as something weird. The Father thinks, the Son captures the thought and they both push this love response as a projection via the HS. It is as if there was no person called the HS?
Why do Catholics see the HS as a "he" when clearly it is a "her"?
(3) There is no reference or use of the Hebrew words in Catholic literature about Elohiym.
Catholic literature is silent explaining three "el" powers,
silent explaining "YHWH, Eloah and Shadday" as three "el" powers.
silent explaining that "Eloah and Shadday" refer to "heavenly parents"
These are 3 major reasons why I see my view different from Catholic view? Would you care to discuss this please?
Shalom
rob
Active member
Greetings Grunion
"I've got to say Le Roy, despite you and Rob being non-Trinitarian you at least have the courage to discuss the topic"
Yes I welcome discussing a word invented by the traditions and precepts of men - "trinity". I have no idea in the slightest, what this word "trinity" means, the Catholics ramble with this and that, the Jews ramble also without speaking a single Torah verse, if the word is so big to you, than explain the word - using Bible texts I can see and read - not human words that have no authority - if you wish to quote EGW do so - but make sure it is her words.
We would love to know what the word means? My understanding your views are founded on history, the traditions of saints way back as 13 century - in the SDA world our views are based entirely on the Torah - the Bible only -
I have never read of Catholic trinity using the words "eloah" "elohiym" "el" and "shadday" or even "YHWH"
One has to explain all these Hebrew words, to make a theme valid. Do you have the scholarship to do this for us?
Shalom
Rob, you seem to be a bit in the dark as to how SDA tradition was handed down to you.
1st,
Ellen White didn't create SDA Doctrines - the SDA anti-Trinitarian Pioneers DID, Ellen was used to CONFIRM the uneducated and heretical ideas folks like James White, J.N. Andrews and other had come up with. These are the "traditions" you received. The words SDA's have trouble with are words which systematize Sacred Scripture - Trinity is one such word.
Another such word is "Impeccability , which is defined as inability to sin - this is applied to Christ because Scripture is clear that the real Christ would be unable to sin. This concept was offensive to the Seventh-day Adventists of Ellen White's time period because it was part of the Trinity Doctrine and Christ was understood to be "LIKE GOD" and NOT God the Almighty. Lucifer wanted to be "LIKE GOD" thus Ellen White describes THAT is what got Lucifer really upset - creature christ was elevated to be "LIKE GOD" thereby making Lucifer jealous.
You're doing a good job in making my point for me Rob. You see the Lutheran's, Methodists, Baptists, Reformed & Evangelicals ALL AGREE with the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christian Church's as to what the Trinity is and is NOT so when you said, as you did that "THE CATHOLIC'S RAMBLE ON WITH THIS AND THAT" what you're saying is that Protestants and Catholics agree on the Doctrine of the Trinity because:
A.
Adventists are NOT Protestant or part of the Reformation - Adventists are part of the RESTORATION movement as they believe the Christian Church sunk into apostasy therefore the Council of Nicaea was a blasphemous gathering of pagans who taught error instead of Bible truth.
&
B.
Ellen White repeatedly repudiated the Doctrine of the Trinity and because SDA's view her as a "prophet" the christ she taught SDA's about CAN BE DIFFERENT than the Christ and Gospel as found in the Bible. You've already demonstrated this good enough.
You have the freedom to believe what you want Rob, you just shouldn't attempt to make it look like you believe in something you don't. If the SDA Church accepted the Trinity Doctrine I think it would survive but the enema would cause a big mess.
rob
Active member
Child like picture of "el"
https://spiritualsprings.org/ss-1391.htm
"Explaining "el-oah"
Explaining "love" both "ahab" and "ahabah"
So if "el" means a "strong authority" as cardinally one person,
than "el-ohiym" must mean a "group of strong authorities functioning as one"
(1) Moses, Aaron and Miriam were family but the Family of El declared Moses to be a Family El
(2) Judges are "el" powers in a family of such powers.
(3) Pagan deities also are "family el powers"
(4) the true Family El power in heaven is also considered a Family power of el
Question if we assume this rendering of Hebrew words are true, than we can make predictions
(a) there should be names for each "el" as heavenly parental functions?
Well we have Father, Son and Mother functions described in the torah
We also have Israel wrongly worshipping the Queen of heaven. But this supposes the existence of such a person of love doesn't it?
The Bible is full of God as a Father and Mother in poetry similes.
(b) there should be evidence of functional use of "breast and womb" functions?
Again there are many examples of poetry similes in this theme.
Problem is if people read similes they assume the simile is not real, hence half of the Bible is poorly understood because of the similes.
Catholics say human families are like Elohiym but they do not see Elohiym like a human family?
Why is that? Traditions and precepts of men. They do not allow corrections to be made when a pioneer saint makes a statement, it is assumed to be true for all eternity. SDA assume only the torah is true for all eternity but the translation of that torah gets better as we understand it better - hence detailed views can change. However traditions and pride do slow down the light coming from torah so the SDA is bogged down in confusion too.
Now notice "El shaddai" means we have a Person with deity
and "EL-oah" means we have a Person with deity
Now Michael is the short cut way of saying "who is (Mi) like (ch) YHWH Elohiym (el) " from Psalms 113:5
SO this makes "three el powers"
Where is the oldest Bible verse for this idea?
Job 40:1 ¶ Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
This verse was written and known to Moses, and means the three "el" powers are like a Family Power.
The verse has "YHWH" Ps 113:5 ; Eloah (Father El) and the Shadday (El shaddai)
Jews have rabbi in first century AD, who spoke of plurality in Elohiym, but Jews refuse to acknowledge this today. So the fact is there are three "el" powers in the term "elohiym' all functioning as "echad" as one in purpose and mission.
The word "faith" confirms this idea, which is a word meaning "support" now as major religions assume meaning "trust or belief"
So this means the "el" powers support each other, and we see this when viewing scripture. No one "el" is independent from the other "el".
Elohiym power has battled with perversions of truth since a false elohiym power lies and makes lies and is the father of lies. So God has tried to keep mankind fixed on viewing God correctly without perversions.
This is an introduction into a highly complex development of "el" "elohiym" "eloah" "shadday" and "YHWH"
Shalom
https://spiritualsprings.org/ss-1391.htm
"Explaining "el-oah"
Explaining "love" both "ahab" and "ahabah"
So if "el" means a "strong authority" as cardinally one person,
than "el-ohiym" must mean a "group of strong authorities functioning as one"
(1) Moses, Aaron and Miriam were family but the Family of El declared Moses to be a Family El
(2) Judges are "el" powers in a family of such powers.
(3) Pagan deities also are "family el powers"
(4) the true Family El power in heaven is also considered a Family power of el
Question if we assume this rendering of Hebrew words are true, than we can make predictions
(a) there should be names for each "el" as heavenly parental functions?
Well we have Father, Son and Mother functions described in the torah
We also have Israel wrongly worshipping the Queen of heaven. But this supposes the existence of such a person of love doesn't it?
The Bible is full of God as a Father and Mother in poetry similes.
(b) there should be evidence of functional use of "breast and womb" functions?
Again there are many examples of poetry similes in this theme.
Problem is if people read similes they assume the simile is not real, hence half of the Bible is poorly understood because of the similes.
Catholics say human families are like Elohiym but they do not see Elohiym like a human family?
Why is that? Traditions and precepts of men. They do not allow corrections to be made when a pioneer saint makes a statement, it is assumed to be true for all eternity. SDA assume only the torah is true for all eternity but the translation of that torah gets better as we understand it better - hence detailed views can change. However traditions and pride do slow down the light coming from torah so the SDA is bogged down in confusion too.
Now notice "El shaddai" means we have a Person with deity
and "EL-oah" means we have a Person with deity
Now Michael is the short cut way of saying "who is (Mi) like (ch) YHWH Elohiym (el) " from Psalms 113:5
SO this makes "three el powers"
Where is the oldest Bible verse for this idea?
Job 40:1 ¶ Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
This verse was written and known to Moses, and means the three "el" powers are like a Family Power.
The verse has "YHWH" Ps 113:5 ; Eloah (Father El) and the Shadday (El shaddai)
Jews have rabbi in first century AD, who spoke of plurality in Elohiym, but Jews refuse to acknowledge this today. So the fact is there are three "el" powers in the term "elohiym' all functioning as "echad" as one in purpose and mission.
The word "faith" confirms this idea, which is a word meaning "support" now as major religions assume meaning "trust or belief"
So this means the "el" powers support each other, and we see this when viewing scripture. No one "el" is independent from the other "el".
Elohiym power has battled with perversions of truth since a false elohiym power lies and makes lies and is the father of lies. So God has tried to keep mankind fixed on viewing God correctly without perversions.
This is an introduction into a highly complex development of "el" "elohiym" "eloah" "shadday" and "YHWH"
Shalom
rob
Active member
There is no result from EGW regarding the search "Impeccability" So I welcome your words but there is no quotation of authority in them - Bible or EGW - my use of the word "Ramble" is because people do not quote Bible words hence their words lack inspired authority.
I grew up as my own learning of Scripture, and joined the SDA as the closest to my understanding of Scripture.
Never read the humans you quoted. I read Hebrew in the torah and confirm this Hebrew using EGW.
My understanding if Jesus is He is YHWH. There are two YHWH, as the word tells you YH and WH
I do not see any difference in powers of deity, despite what you claim.
The first YHWH is active the Cela rock simile the Second YHWH is a foundation flint rock the Tsuwr
Both rocks followed Israel, but the Flint rock left Israel when breaking faith, so the messenger did all the work
De 32:13 He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock;
Both rock similes are in this verse
Moses is as high as the letter e in Eben as a comparison.
Picture was taken by Dr Kim Young a SDA doctor to Jordan king many years ago in Sinai.
Shalom
The word "impeccability" encapsulates the over 150 explicit references found in Scripture that foretold that Christ could not sin. Impeccability is just a word that systematizes Scripture's teaching on this subject. The same thing going on with the world Trinity. In any event you evidently accept what Ellen White said as "inspired authority" as it was Ellen White that said Christ "COULD HAVE SINNED" & "LOST HIS SALVATION" - both concept 100% contrary to what the Bible teaches yet you seem to have no problem throwing marsh mallows at Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Lutheranism, Baptists, the Reformed, Methodists and Evangelicals - all whom are in agreement on the Doctrine of the Trinity.
You understood Scripture as teaching God's continued existence is conditional on God living up to God's moral law? Ok! I know that Jehovah's Witness and SDA's see it that way - it's really strange according to what I see in my Bible but ok!
It's ONE Lord, it's ONE God, it's ONE POWER. The Father isn't God without the Son and vise-versa Rob. But you've been honest about your anti-Trinitarianism, so I won't belabor that point with you.
rob
Active member
The problem is people do not talk - our pioneers did not talk they rambled... Dudley Canright is a good example of this rambling - "the only true God is God - there are not 1000 gods, or two gods but only one god". What on earth is he talking about and which Hebrew word is this? That is the problem, people ramble, but do not talk. Truth only comes from God has written in Hebrew in His torah. It is a terrible assumption by Canright for instance to assume the word elohiym only means Father. It does not. Not even close.
When I had a problem with water restrictions at my job as a Village Gardener, I asked the Council Secretary can I speak to the Strong Authority who made the water usage rules? Sorry he is not in. Oh, can I email him. No we don't hand out public emails? When can I make an appointment to see him. Sorry that is not allowed.
Such impossible talk is the same problem talking to a Church, any Church. They do not talk and refuse to talk to you - at best you get one email and mostly monologue and never a discussion - and NEVER ever a Bible study - and certainly not in Hebrew. I have had people speak to me, why do you talk in Hebrew ? Well what other language was spoken and written in the Bible - certainly not English.
When you finally get a person in the Council to talk to you he is not the Strong Authority - only at best a white public spokesperson trained to deal with the public. You never speak to the Strong Authority. Now the world is ruled and run by ten merchants the Bible says. Can you speak to them? no. They refuse to talk.
So what on earth does "trinity" mean? We will never know. The Strong Authority who runs with this word is only to confuse us with invented words, and make it a reason why killing us is a service to God. Just like Digital ID, what on earth is this about and who can you talk to? Just like the vaccine to ward off a global pandemic ? What on earth was global enough to kill us globally? Nothing that I could see. Compared to Bubonic Plague the QLD Government said - now if you go looking the QLD website is gone. So can you "talk" to any Strong Authority? No.
I told my boss I was talking a year off work when the mandated vaccines came round. But who could I talk to about this ? Nobody. That is the problem with any truth in my Church. Nobody wants to talk. They just walk away from you when you start talking.
I tried to recently speak to my Pastor about genuine faith, that God revealed to me. For 45 years I was doing faith wrong according to God and God wanted me to get the faith process correct. But can I talk to my Church about this? No they refuse to listen. I got one meeting of stunned silence. Now they ignore me.
Grunion says "Rob, you seem to be a bit in the dark as to how SDA tradition was handed down to you."
Rob replies " I never realized my salvation depended upon what humans say about the Scriptures?"
The Bible says " Php 2:12..work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (KJV)
It also says : Isa 29:12 ..Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
So if any of of lack wisdom : Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, so there is no excuse for know learning the Hebrew torah as the Bible teaches - like Jesus - who was home schooled on His mother's knee.
So I am happy to talk to anybody about Bible verses and Bible truth.
And if "trinity" is a big deal for the end of time, it would be nice if we could "talk" about this?
Here is an interesting website - let's see?
Wow it's deep and confusing - anybody willing to discuss this pdf with me?
When I had a problem with water restrictions at my job as a Village Gardener, I asked the Council Secretary can I speak to the Strong Authority who made the water usage rules? Sorry he is not in. Oh, can I email him. No we don't hand out public emails? When can I make an appointment to see him. Sorry that is not allowed.
Such impossible talk is the same problem talking to a Church, any Church. They do not talk and refuse to talk to you - at best you get one email and mostly monologue and never a discussion - and NEVER ever a Bible study - and certainly not in Hebrew. I have had people speak to me, why do you talk in Hebrew ? Well what other language was spoken and written in the Bible - certainly not English.
When you finally get a person in the Council to talk to you he is not the Strong Authority - only at best a white public spokesperson trained to deal with the public. You never speak to the Strong Authority. Now the world is ruled and run by ten merchants the Bible says. Can you speak to them? no. They refuse to talk.
So what on earth does "trinity" mean? We will never know. The Strong Authority who runs with this word is only to confuse us with invented words, and make it a reason why killing us is a service to God. Just like Digital ID, what on earth is this about and who can you talk to? Just like the vaccine to ward off a global pandemic ? What on earth was global enough to kill us globally? Nothing that I could see. Compared to Bubonic Plague the QLD Government said - now if you go looking the QLD website is gone. So can you "talk" to any Strong Authority? No.
I told my boss I was talking a year off work when the mandated vaccines came round. But who could I talk to about this ? Nobody. That is the problem with any truth in my Church. Nobody wants to talk. They just walk away from you when you start talking.
I tried to recently speak to my Pastor about genuine faith, that God revealed to me. For 45 years I was doing faith wrong according to God and God wanted me to get the faith process correct. But can I talk to my Church about this? No they refuse to listen. I got one meeting of stunned silence. Now they ignore me.
Grunion says "Rob, you seem to be a bit in the dark as to how SDA tradition was handed down to you."
Rob replies " I never realized my salvation depended upon what humans say about the Scriptures?"
The Bible says " Php 2:12..work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (KJV)
It also says : Isa 29:12 ..Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
So if any of of lack wisdom : Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, so there is no excuse for know learning the Hebrew torah as the Bible teaches - like Jesus - who was home schooled on His mother's knee.
So I am happy to talk to anybody about Bible verses and Bible truth.
And if "trinity" is a big deal for the end of time, it would be nice if we could "talk" about this?
Here is an interesting website - let's see?
Wow it's deep and confusing - anybody willing to discuss this pdf with me?
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rob
Active member
Greetings Grunion
I really like your discussion . You say "The word "impeccability" encapsulates the over 150 explicit references found in Scripture that foretold that Christ could not sin.
One good verse is enough for me, where does the Bible say Jesus could not sin.
You also say "It's ONE Lord,"
What do you do with this verse: (and others like this one?)
Ge 19:24 ¶ Then the YHWH rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the YHWH out of heaven;
If Catholic trinity has no problem with One Being as three Persons, well here are TWO LORDS, and if this is correct - you would expect at least two Lords, for title for each of the two Divine Persons.
De 9:26 I prayed therefore unto the LORD, and said, O Lord GOD, destroy not thy people and thine inheritance,
Why does this verse have Daniel referring / praying to two Lords?
Jg 6:22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face.
Again Messenger YHWH and Adonay YHWH suggest two Lords?
Ps 38:15 For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God.
Again the suggestion of two Lords?
Isa 61:1 ¶ The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek;
This verse has three Divine Persons all mentioned in one verse?
Eze 20:47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Here two Lords are titled with different Hebrew titles?
Da 9:4 ¶ And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
Here Daniel prays to YHWH and another Adonay as "El" suggesting two Lords?
Am 7:6 The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.
Why repeat the theme with two different Hebrew titles, suggesting two Lords?
You also say " The Father isn't God without the Son and vise-versa Rob.
Where does the Bible speak of such a theme, as you outline ?
Ex 23:20 ¶ Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
This might suggest your view, for the Messenger YHWH has the Father YHWH Name in Him, and if you obey Messenger YHWH leading, Father YHWH will do things for you (Israel) - I see this as the Son and the Father supporting each other, as the word "faith" implies. Any discussion welcome.
Shalom
I really like your discussion . You say "The word "impeccability" encapsulates the over 150 explicit references found in Scripture that foretold that Christ could not sin.
One good verse is enough for me, where does the Bible say Jesus could not sin.
You also say "It's ONE Lord,"
What do you do with this verse: (and others like this one?)
Ge 19:24 ¶ Then the YHWH rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the YHWH out of heaven;
If Catholic trinity has no problem with One Being as three Persons, well here are TWO LORDS, and if this is correct - you would expect at least two Lords, for title for each of the two Divine Persons.
De 9:26 I prayed therefore unto the LORD, and said, O Lord GOD, destroy not thy people and thine inheritance,
Why does this verse have Daniel referring / praying to two Lords?
Jg 6:22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face.
Again Messenger YHWH and Adonay YHWH suggest two Lords?
Ps 38:15 For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God.
Again the suggestion of two Lords?
Isa 61:1 ¶ The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek;
This verse has three Divine Persons all mentioned in one verse?
Eze 20:47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Here two Lords are titled with different Hebrew titles?
Da 9:4 ¶ And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
Here Daniel prays to YHWH and another Adonay as "El" suggesting two Lords?
Am 7:6 The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.
Why repeat the theme with two different Hebrew titles, suggesting two Lords?
You also say " The Father isn't God without the Son and vise-versa Rob.
Where does the Bible speak of such a theme, as you outline ?
Ex 23:20 ¶ Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
This might suggest your view, for the Messenger YHWH has the Father YHWH Name in Him, and if you obey Messenger YHWH leading, Father YHWH will do things for you (Israel) - I see this as the Son and the Father supporting each other, as the word "faith" implies. Any discussion welcome.
Shalom
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rob
Active member
https://repairingthesabbathbreach.com/resources/Catholic%20and%20Adventist%20Trinity.pdf
If you clink on the above link and starting reading a SDA view, being a SDA myself, I get stuck already in their posts:
6. The body or person of Christ was human and not divine. Hebrews 2:9,14,16; Hebrews
10:5
Rob: Hmm? I would say Jesus took up biological body the same fallen flesh as humans are born with as a result of Adam's sin. Such a biological body is not divine. Why make such a statement though?
What about the body before Jesus took up a biological body? How did He leave His pre-existent body?
That is part of the mystery of incarnation - if we take this SDA view that God is spirit, than spirits can leave their bodies, makes the incarnation no longer a mystery, and I feel the SDA view is off track already.
I do not view Elohiym as "spirit" the term is hijacked by a wrong context.
John 4:24 is talking about worship of the Father via a medium. Not talking about Elohiym nature.
I get EGW quotes fuzzy verses, but she does not straighten the added Greek word "is".
Nobody knows what shape God is, but it is certainly like a human, See Ezekiel 1
Eze 1:26 ¶ And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.
The shape looks like "mankind" that means both gender male and gender female in function, and is copper in colour and with fire or energy glowing like a Sun. The important thing it is real, not a spirit - I assume the SDA means like some ghostly form??
7. Thus the three persons in which God is, are not divine persons, but the persons house
the one God that is Spirit. 1John 5:7; Galatians 3:20; John 4:24.
Rob: I beg to differ already from this SDA view.
8. The hair of the Father, or His body or person, is white as wool, this is certainly not
divine hair. God is Spirit, not hair or body, and it is this same God who is divine.
Daniel 7:9; John 4:24; Romans 1:20
Rob: Again I differ already. God has a shape with and in His Divinity. I dare not assume otherwise and like Ps 131:1 some things are too high for us. So already 3 statements in the SDA view of their trinity or ???
And I am different already? Do SDA people discuss such things? No, it's rare. I have been around the SDA for over 45 years and never had a SDA discuss their view of God in such details.
Shalom
If you clink on the above link and starting reading a SDA view, being a SDA myself, I get stuck already in their posts:
6. The body or person of Christ was human and not divine. Hebrews 2:9,14,16; Hebrews
10:5
Rob: Hmm? I would say Jesus took up biological body the same fallen flesh as humans are born with as a result of Adam's sin. Such a biological body is not divine. Why make such a statement though?
What about the body before Jesus took up a biological body? How did He leave His pre-existent body?
That is part of the mystery of incarnation - if we take this SDA view that God is spirit, than spirits can leave their bodies, makes the incarnation no longer a mystery, and I feel the SDA view is off track already.
I do not view Elohiym as "spirit" the term is hijacked by a wrong context.
John 4:24 is talking about worship of the Father via a medium. Not talking about Elohiym nature.
I get EGW quotes fuzzy verses, but she does not straighten the added Greek word "is".
Nobody knows what shape God is, but it is certainly like a human, See Ezekiel 1
Eze 1:26 ¶ And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.
The shape looks like "mankind" that means both gender male and gender female in function, and is copper in colour and with fire or energy glowing like a Sun. The important thing it is real, not a spirit - I assume the SDA means like some ghostly form??
7. Thus the three persons in which God is, are not divine persons, but the persons house
the one God that is Spirit. 1John 5:7; Galatians 3:20; John 4:24.
Rob: I beg to differ already from this SDA view.
8. The hair of the Father, or His body or person, is white as wool, this is certainly not
divine hair. God is Spirit, not hair or body, and it is this same God who is divine.
Daniel 7:9; John 4:24; Romans 1:20
Rob: Again I differ already. God has a shape with and in His Divinity. I dare not assume otherwise and like Ps 131:1 some things are too high for us. So already 3 statements in the SDA view of their trinity or ???
And I am different already? Do SDA people discuss such things? No, it's rare. I have been around the SDA for over 45 years and never had a SDA discuss their view of God in such details.
Shalom
rob
Active member
10. Thus the divinity of the Father, Jesus the Word and the Holy Spirit is not their persons,
but the divine Spirit Nature that dwells in them. Galatians 4:8; 2Peter 1:4; John 4:24
Ga 4:8 ¶ Howbeit then, when ye knew not God,
ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Rob: This SDA view is wrong and the verses misleading to say the least.
What is Gal 4:8 saying?
Adam Clarke "When ye knew not [God] Though it is evident, from the complexion of the whole of this epistle, that the great body of the Christians in the Churches of Galatia were converts from among the Jews or proselytes to Judaism; yet from this verse it appears that there were some who had been converted from heathenism; unless we suppose that the apostle here particularly addresses those who had been proselytes to Judaism and thence converted to Christianity; which appears to be most likely from the following verses.
Not talking about Elohiym ghost like nature.
For all contexts “ruwach or pnemia [its translated equivalent] means “medium” ,
not a polysemous mix, like the SDA assumes “ghost like nature, medium, spirit, character, etc, etc” See EGW references to HS as a Medium or Agency.
“Partakers of the Divine Nature” refer to how by faith we are imputed divinity powers to us and through us so we become in time like God in terms of love. The verse is not talking about the essence of Elohiym as some ghostly like shape.
John 4:24 is a Greek translation with “is” added
With Hebrew intent the verse says
Joh 4:24 Eloihym [is] mediumic: and they that worship him must worship him [via] medium and in truth.
It’s talking about how the Father comes to us, via the Medium, not talking about His shape.
Eze 1:27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.
This verse says Elohiym YHWH looks like a fire shape in the visual form of a human.
Fire is a concept of energy, as Elohiym is light ( 1Jo 1:5 )
If Scripture nobody has seen the Father’s shape, that also implies nobody can describe the Father’s shape. Ezekiel is a good description of what YHWH looks like.
The verse says YHWH looked real, like a human looks real, but is not biological like humans are biological. Yet the functions are similar, we are in YHWH image.
Question: How does a body function as omnipresent?
Answer: using medium properties.
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me,
and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
For example the breath is paralleled to ruwach here as a medium affect.
This affect is administrated by the Shadday.
So the Shadday is an administrator for the Medium affect, what we fuzzy term the Holy Spirit.
Mediums are strange things in science, and can do various things to light in space, including carrying light everywhere.
Now at least I base my two pennies on Scripture verses. And I can take the studies only so far.
Confirmation the HS functions as a medium?
EGW: “God is love. The love of the Father and the Son is an attribute of every believer. The Word of God is the channel through which divine love is communicated to man. God’s truth is the medium by which the intellect is reached. The Holy Spirit is given to the human agent who works in cooperation with divine agencies. It transforms mind and character, enabling man to endure as seeing Him who is invisible. Perfect love can be enjoyed only through the belief of the truth and the reception of the Holy Spirit.... {OFC 294.2}
EGW: "Christ is still with us in his representative, the Holy Spirit. Through this medium communication is kept up between heaven and earth, between God and man. And we must be careful not to destroy this communication, lest we be overcome. {EA 154.5
Shalom
but the divine Spirit Nature that dwells in them. Galatians 4:8; 2Peter 1:4; John 4:24
Ga 4:8 ¶ Howbeit then, when ye knew not God,
ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Rob: This SDA view is wrong and the verses misleading to say the least.
What is Gal 4:8 saying?
Adam Clarke "When ye knew not [God] Though it is evident, from the complexion of the whole of this epistle, that the great body of the Christians in the Churches of Galatia were converts from among the Jews or proselytes to Judaism; yet from this verse it appears that there were some who had been converted from heathenism; unless we suppose that the apostle here particularly addresses those who had been proselytes to Judaism and thence converted to Christianity; which appears to be most likely from the following verses.
Not talking about Elohiym ghost like nature.
For all contexts “ruwach or pnemia [its translated equivalent] means “medium” ,
not a polysemous mix, like the SDA assumes “ghost like nature, medium, spirit, character, etc, etc” See EGW references to HS as a Medium or Agency.
“Partakers of the Divine Nature” refer to how by faith we are imputed divinity powers to us and through us so we become in time like God in terms of love. The verse is not talking about the essence of Elohiym as some ghostly like shape.
John 4:24 is a Greek translation with “is” added
With Hebrew intent the verse says
Joh 4:24 Eloihym [is] mediumic: and they that worship him must worship him [via] medium and in truth.
It’s talking about how the Father comes to us, via the Medium, not talking about His shape.
Eze 1:27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.
This verse says Elohiym YHWH looks like a fire shape in the visual form of a human.
Fire is a concept of energy, as Elohiym is light ( 1Jo 1:5 )
If Scripture nobody has seen the Father’s shape, that also implies nobody can describe the Father’s shape. Ezekiel is a good description of what YHWH looks like.
The verse says YHWH looked real, like a human looks real, but is not biological like humans are biological. Yet the functions are similar, we are in YHWH image.
Question: How does a body function as omnipresent?
Answer: using medium properties.
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me,
and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
For example the breath is paralleled to ruwach here as a medium affect.
This affect is administrated by the Shadday.
So the Shadday is an administrator for the Medium affect, what we fuzzy term the Holy Spirit.
Mediums are strange things in science, and can do various things to light in space, including carrying light everywhere.
Now at least I base my two pennies on Scripture verses. And I can take the studies only so far.
Confirmation the HS functions as a medium?
EGW: “God is love. The love of the Father and the Son is an attribute of every believer. The Word of God is the channel through which divine love is communicated to man. God’s truth is the medium by which the intellect is reached. The Holy Spirit is given to the human agent who works in cooperation with divine agencies. It transforms mind and character, enabling man to endure as seeing Him who is invisible. Perfect love can be enjoyed only through the belief of the truth and the reception of the Holy Spirit.... {OFC 294.2}
EGW: "Christ is still with us in his representative, the Holy Spirit. Through this medium communication is kept up between heaven and earth, between God and man. And we must be careful not to destroy this communication, lest we be overcome. {EA 154.5
Shalom
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Dudley Canright is a perfect example - he was pumped full of strange fire by James and Ellen White - who violently stuffed Canright full of those ideas not unlike an enraged 300lb woman stuffs a turkey. In fact it was Ellen White and her husband who revised and edited Canrights 1878 anti-Trinitarian article in the Sabbath Herald - the most direct and brutal anti-Trinitarian article to ever been the Sabbath Herald! And mind you, the Sabbath Herald was known for it's creature-christ articles.
Like I've said in the past Rob, we can't fathom the Trinity, but we can know from the Bible what it is NOT. It's not a difficult concept to say the Bible teaches that Christ was always the Christ, from eternity. It's also not a difficult concept to say that the Bible clearly teaches that Christ is God Almighty and Almighty God told us what God was going to do and how it would all work out in the endgame. Along comes the SDA Pioneers who didn't like that - they wanted to create a false God and a false Gospel. They were having some trouble with people buying off on their novel creature so a young woman started to perform circus acts to convince people that what these pioneers were saying were right and in keeping with Flesh Father. I've noticed that you've not attempted to dispel any of the Scriptures I shared about how Michael could not be Christ.
rob
Active member
Greeting Grunion
You speak well and thanks for your words, but at the end you say
"I've noticed that you've not attempted to dispel any of the Scriptures I shared about how Michael could not be Christ"
Jeff Benner says "Michael" is the shortened way of saying "Who is like YHWH Elohiym" from Psalm 113:5
It's not a statement, It's not a question. It a short cut way of saying Ps 113:5
To me Michael means "YHWH-elohiym" or "Jesus-YHWH"
The easiest way to prove to you in Jude that an angel could not contend with Satan that a human who died on the earth, was God's and not the Devils prize, is angels have no life in them, their living comes from God.
SO by the law of association, only LIFE could awaken a Corpse and this is alone is strong evidence "who is like YHWH Elohiym" (Ps 113:5) is Jesus-YHWH.
By the way the English word "like" means in Hebrew, who compares to YHWH Eloihym. Answer nothing pagan does, no creature power does, only divine powers can compare to Divinity.
Shalom
You speak well and thanks for your words, but at the end you say
"I've noticed that you've not attempted to dispel any of the Scriptures I shared about how Michael could not be Christ"
Jeff Benner says "Michael" is the shortened way of saying "Who is like YHWH Elohiym" from Psalm 113:5
It's not a statement, It's not a question. It a short cut way of saying Ps 113:5
To me Michael means "YHWH-elohiym" or "Jesus-YHWH"
The easiest way to prove to you in Jude that an angel could not contend with Satan that a human who died on the earth, was God's and not the Devils prize, is angels have no life in them, their living comes from God.
SO by the law of association, only LIFE could awaken a Corpse and this is alone is strong evidence "who is like YHWH Elohiym" (Ps 113:5) is Jesus-YHWH.
By the way the English word "like" means in Hebrew, who compares to YHWH Eloihym. Answer nothing pagan does, no creature power does, only divine powers can compare to Divinity.
Shalom
rob
Active member
EGW publishing of the fuzzy term “God is spirit” - 50 results
Theme (1) EGW: The mighty power that works through all nature and sustains all things is not, as some men of science represent, merely an all-pervading principle, an actuating energy. God is a spirit; yet He is a personal being, for man was made in His image.
God’s handiwork in nature is not God Himself in nature. {CCh 74.2}
So if GOD Himself is NOT in nature, so what is the mighty power that works in nature?
She calls this “energy”. She does not call this "spirit" - that is my point.
She is making “God is spirit” God pervades Nature via a Medium affect as something called "energy".
Theme (2) EGW: "“The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.” John 4:21, 23, 24. Truth is to be planted in every place to which we can possibly gain access. It is to be carried to regions that are barren of the knowledge of God. Men will be blessed in receiving the One in whom their hopes of eternal life are centered. The acceptance of the truth as it is in Jesus will fill their hearts with melody to God. {CH 216.4}
Here EGW speaks of truth going everywhere not localised to one place, like Israel or Samaria. There is no reference to some ghost like nature of God here.
She adds to this theme
EGW: “Religion is not to be confined to external forms and ceremonies.
EGW: “As the woman heard these words, faith sprang up in her heart.
Again from this message and her comments, there is nothing about God as some ghostly form.(spirit)
Adding to Theme (1) The mighty power that works through all nature and sustains all things is not, as some men of science represent, merely an all-pervading principle, an actuating energy. God is a Spirit; yet He is a personal Being; for so He has revealed Himself: {MH 413.1}
EGW is saying the “force in Nature is NOT passive energy” so what is it?
The only way around such statements is that the “breath of life” is “a personal form of God” as “living energy” and this “power” is not “passive” - yet how does this stay away from Pantheism, this idea that God is in the wood, the animals and the human?
Perhaps a deep look at Scripture will help
Ex 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
These two verses use the same Hebrew word, that comes in both verb and noun context.
Scholar assume wrongly words like this have different meaning, when its the same word with differences in action.
The verb is a incomplete action while the noun is a completed action.
So what single English word meaning fits both verses and indeed all contexts?
Ex 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was energised.
Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living energy.
This Hebrew intent creates two things - it tells us the proper purpose of Sabbath is to energise ourselves as God also did.
And second it tells us that our biological body is brought alive by the presence of energy.
Does EGW confirm this idea?
The cold formalism that is now prevailing among us must give place to the living energy of experimental godliness.
Never are they to clothe a “Thus saith the Lord” with enticing words of man’s wisdom. Thus they destroy its living energy, making it weak and powerless, so that it fails to convict of sin.
Notice she terms "God's presence" as "living energy" not the English word "spirit" -
The fuzzy term is used because the KJV uses the term and truth is relative to the learner.
They must be whole-souled Christians, possessing the earnestness and living energy derived from Christ.... {Advocate May 1, 1899, par. 7}
Wow that's easy to understand....
It is the living energy of the Holy Spirit that will move hearts, not pleasing, deceptive theories.
And this....
There must be a power, a living energy, which will arouse the consciences. There must be a power coming from God to attend the efforts. {Lt26-1873.}
And this sentence
The mighty power that works through all nature and sustains all things is not, as some men of science represent, merely an all-pervading principle, an actuating energy. God is a spirit; yet He is a personal being, for man was made in His image. {CCh 74.2}
Rob: So it is incorrect to term the presence of God in us as “spirit” but as “living energy” and this is NOT to be understood as merely natural energy as science see this - energy is not like this idea .
God endowed man with so great vital force that he has withstood the accumulation of disease brought upon the race in consequence of perverted habits, and has continued for six thousand years. This fact of itself is enough to evidence to us the strength and electrical energy that God gave to man at his creation.
The the “breath of life” comes via a medium affect as “electrical energy” not merely energy as Science says, but “living energy” the presence of God - while staying away from Pantheism, we have a mystery .
Paul taught that religion is a practical, saving energy, a principle wholly from God, a personal experience of God’s renewing power upon the soul. {AA 451.3}
Energy is imparted to the soul by searching its pages.8 {CG 507.2}
All heaven is keeping the Sabbath, but not in a listless, do-nothing way. On this day every energy of the soul should be awake, for are we not to meet with God and with Christ our Saviour? We may behold Him by faith.
When you study EGW the Bible comes to you with Hebrew intent, if you wish to learn deeper.
So for these reasons, we should avoid the term "spirit" which means "medium" and use "energy" to describe God's shape, which is real and personal and looks like man, as visions in Ezekiel describe. This term is not the secular term Science give it, the term is a mystery.
Shalom
Theme (1) EGW: The mighty power that works through all nature and sustains all things is not, as some men of science represent, merely an all-pervading principle, an actuating energy. God is a spirit; yet He is a personal being, for man was made in His image.
God’s handiwork in nature is not God Himself in nature. {CCh 74.2}
So if GOD Himself is NOT in nature, so what is the mighty power that works in nature?
She calls this “energy”. She does not call this "spirit" - that is my point.
She is making “God is spirit” God pervades Nature via a Medium affect as something called "energy".
Theme (2) EGW: "“The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.” John 4:21, 23, 24. Truth is to be planted in every place to which we can possibly gain access. It is to be carried to regions that are barren of the knowledge of God. Men will be blessed in receiving the One in whom their hopes of eternal life are centered. The acceptance of the truth as it is in Jesus will fill their hearts with melody to God. {CH 216.4}
Here EGW speaks of truth going everywhere not localised to one place, like Israel or Samaria. There is no reference to some ghost like nature of God here.
She adds to this theme
EGW: “Religion is not to be confined to external forms and ceremonies.
EGW: “As the woman heard these words, faith sprang up in her heart.
Again from this message and her comments, there is nothing about God as some ghostly form.(spirit)
Adding to Theme (1) The mighty power that works through all nature and sustains all things is not, as some men of science represent, merely an all-pervading principle, an actuating energy. God is a Spirit; yet He is a personal Being; for so He has revealed Himself: {MH 413.1}
EGW is saying the “force in Nature is NOT passive energy” so what is it?
The only way around such statements is that the “breath of life” is “a personal form of God” as “living energy” and this “power” is not “passive” - yet how does this stay away from Pantheism, this idea that God is in the wood, the animals and the human?
Perhaps a deep look at Scripture will help
Ex 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
These two verses use the same Hebrew word, that comes in both verb and noun context.
Scholar assume wrongly words like this have different meaning, when its the same word with differences in action.
The verb is a incomplete action while the noun is a completed action.
So what single English word meaning fits both verses and indeed all contexts?
Ex 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was energised.
Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living energy.
This Hebrew intent creates two things - it tells us the proper purpose of Sabbath is to energise ourselves as God also did.
And second it tells us that our biological body is brought alive by the presence of energy.
Does EGW confirm this idea?
The cold formalism that is now prevailing among us must give place to the living energy of experimental godliness.
Never are they to clothe a “Thus saith the Lord” with enticing words of man’s wisdom. Thus they destroy its living energy, making it weak and powerless, so that it fails to convict of sin.
Notice she terms "God's presence" as "living energy" not the English word "spirit" -
The fuzzy term is used because the KJV uses the term and truth is relative to the learner.
They must be whole-souled Christians, possessing the earnestness and living energy derived from Christ.... {Advocate May 1, 1899, par. 7}
Wow that's easy to understand....
It is the living energy of the Holy Spirit that will move hearts, not pleasing, deceptive theories.
And this....
There must be a power, a living energy, which will arouse the consciences. There must be a power coming from God to attend the efforts. {Lt26-1873.}
And this sentence
The mighty power that works through all nature and sustains all things is not, as some men of science represent, merely an all-pervading principle, an actuating energy. God is a spirit; yet He is a personal being, for man was made in His image. {CCh 74.2}
Rob: So it is incorrect to term the presence of God in us as “spirit” but as “living energy” and this is NOT to be understood as merely natural energy as science see this - energy is not like this idea .
God endowed man with so great vital force that he has withstood the accumulation of disease brought upon the race in consequence of perverted habits, and has continued for six thousand years. This fact of itself is enough to evidence to us the strength and electrical energy that God gave to man at his creation.
The the “breath of life” comes via a medium affect as “electrical energy” not merely energy as Science says, but “living energy” the presence of God - while staying away from Pantheism, we have a mystery .
Paul taught that religion is a practical, saving energy, a principle wholly from God, a personal experience of God’s renewing power upon the soul. {AA 451.3}
Energy is imparted to the soul by searching its pages.8 {CG 507.2}
All heaven is keeping the Sabbath, but not in a listless, do-nothing way. On this day every energy of the soul should be awake, for are we not to meet with God and with Christ our Saviour? We may behold Him by faith.
When you study EGW the Bible comes to you with Hebrew intent, if you wish to learn deeper.
So for these reasons, we should avoid the term "spirit" which means "medium" and use "energy" to describe God's shape, which is real and personal and looks like man, as visions in Ezekiel describe. This term is not the secular term Science give it, the term is a mystery.
Shalom
rob
Active member
Greetings Grunion
You said "Like I've said in the past Rob, we can't fathom the Trinity, but we can know from the Bible what it is NOT. It's not a difficult concept to say the Bible teaches that Christ was always the Christ, from eternity. It's also not a difficult concept to say that the Bible clearly teaches that Christ is God Almighty and Almighty God told us what God was going to do and how it would all work out in the endgame. Along comes the SDA Pioneers who didn't like that -"
Actually the Hebrew word Elohiym is easy to fathom, you simply investigate all 3,500 contexts and make a single English word fit all of them. That English word EGW chose is "family". I agree with this assessment.
Problem is nobody agrees and nobody wants to talk. It is as if scholars like being confused, including SDA scholars, many I supposed are influenced by mason intentionally - to keep us in the dark.
You are right saying some things here "why did our pioneers assume in the past Jesus was born from the Father? Such a process would change Jesus into a lesser form of infinity?? Why don't we say "the begotten process refers to when Jesus comes to earth with added humanity" - but again nobody talks - so we live our entire lives without learning important points of Scripture - we have a Sabbath school process to learn knowledge - but much of this schooling process is not Bible nor EGW - it's traditions of men who dabble in English only.
Now I am waiting for a one good verse among 150 you claim teaches Jesus could never have sinned?
You do not understand the Hebrew word "faith / amanah" first mentioned in
Ex 17:12 But Moses' hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun. (fuzzy KJV translation)
Ex 17:12 But Moses' hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were "supported" until the going down of the sun. (with Hebrew intent)
Faith means to support another person. It does not mean "belief" - it can mean "trust" because trust is supporting another person in a narrow context.
My understanding the entire universe including the three Strong Authorities all support each other, hence cannot and will not demonstrate their powers independently for independent reasons. Such a thing is called a sin.
Humans cannot demonstrate their powers independently for independent reasons, because in a sinless state creature have no inherit powers of their own, our powers flow from our faith in our Creator.
When the creature sinned, he wanted to be like the Most High, so the Most High created dysfunction in Him so He could be a Provider for independent powers fro dysfunction.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do
Now the Devil is a Provider of independent power for all his subjects, who live and are ruled by Him, using faith in his powers of self. That is where self comes from and why we are to pray for God to rescue us from self.
So when the Devil tempted Jesus to turn stones into bread, He was asking Jesus to break faith in His Father, using His Father's power, and independently use His own powers of divinity instead. Jesus refused.
Only Divine deities have inherit powers of being independent - but they refuse to be independent, and this is why Three Strong Authorities have love from each other as cardinally one flow of love. This is completely different to how pagan family deities work - they function independently and therefore are polytheism
Gnostic writings is the omega apostasy EGW warns us about, as it also was the alpha apostasy in Paul and John's time, is back destroying churches with the idea "faith" is a "believe concept only".
The Apocryphon of John - NHL
"And the Sophia of the Epinoia, being an aeon, conceived a thought from herself and the conception of the invisible Spirit and foreknowledge. She wanted to bring forth a likeness out of herself without the consent of the Spirit, - he had not approved - and without her consort, and without his consideration. And though the person of her maleness had not approved, and she had not found her agreement, and she had thought without the consent of the Spirit and the knowledge of her agreement, (yet) she brought forth. And because of the invincible power which is in her, her thought did not remain idle, and something came out of her which was imperfect and different from her appearance, because she had created it without her consort. And it was dissimilar to the likeness of its mother, for it has another form.
There are other quotes, but this will do, the Holy Spirit cannot create without a consort, so this dribble is pushing a false doctrine all over the world, and it a confusion to say the least.
The only time Jesus showed his own deity as power was when he went to the mountain and changed himself back to His former glory to speak face to face with heaven:
Mt 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
The enemy was overcome by Christ in His human nature. The power of the Saviour’s Godhead was hidden. He overcame in human nature, relying upon God for power. This is the privilege of all. In proportion to our faith will be our victory (The Youth’s Instructor, April 25, 1901). {5BC 1108.6}
So Jesus overcome temptations by using faith - the same way we have to -
EGW: "His prayer was heard. Suddenly the heavens opened, and holy radiance descended upon the mount, enshrouding the Saviour’s form. Divinity from within flashed through humanity and met the glory coming from above. Arising from His prostrate position, Christ stood in godlike majesty. His countenance shone “as the sun,” and His garments were “white as light.” {HLv 285.1}
Rob:” I see this as a faith request and His own divinity coming through His humanity to meet the divinity coming down from the Father, so they both met each other and flashed together as the glory of the sun.
This proves Jesus-YHWH is in fact deity as the Father is deity, and in a rare display (not using faith) the two deity powers rush to meet each other !
Even when the messenger comes to earth in the OT, we see the support here too - the Jesus-YHWH does and uses the power from the Father-YHWH, all the time, again showing that elohiym is always supporting each other.
Ex 23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
Shalom
You said "Like I've said in the past Rob, we can't fathom the Trinity, but we can know from the Bible what it is NOT. It's not a difficult concept to say the Bible teaches that Christ was always the Christ, from eternity. It's also not a difficult concept to say that the Bible clearly teaches that Christ is God Almighty and Almighty God told us what God was going to do and how it would all work out in the endgame. Along comes the SDA Pioneers who didn't like that -"
Actually the Hebrew word Elohiym is easy to fathom, you simply investigate all 3,500 contexts and make a single English word fit all of them. That English word EGW chose is "family". I agree with this assessment.
Problem is nobody agrees and nobody wants to talk. It is as if scholars like being confused, including SDA scholars, many I supposed are influenced by mason intentionally - to keep us in the dark.
You are right saying some things here "why did our pioneers assume in the past Jesus was born from the Father? Such a process would change Jesus into a lesser form of infinity?? Why don't we say "the begotten process refers to when Jesus comes to earth with added humanity" - but again nobody talks - so we live our entire lives without learning important points of Scripture - we have a Sabbath school process to learn knowledge - but much of this schooling process is not Bible nor EGW - it's traditions of men who dabble in English only.
Now I am waiting for a one good verse among 150 you claim teaches Jesus could never have sinned?
You do not understand the Hebrew word "faith / amanah" first mentioned in
Ex 17:12 But Moses' hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun. (fuzzy KJV translation)
Ex 17:12 But Moses' hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were "supported" until the going down of the sun. (with Hebrew intent)
Faith means to support another person. It does not mean "belief" - it can mean "trust" because trust is supporting another person in a narrow context.
My understanding the entire universe including the three Strong Authorities all support each other, hence cannot and will not demonstrate their powers independently for independent reasons. Such a thing is called a sin.
Humans cannot demonstrate their powers independently for independent reasons, because in a sinless state creature have no inherit powers of their own, our powers flow from our faith in our Creator.
When the creature sinned, he wanted to be like the Most High, so the Most High created dysfunction in Him so He could be a Provider for independent powers fro dysfunction.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do
Now the Devil is a Provider of independent power for all his subjects, who live and are ruled by Him, using faith in his powers of self. That is where self comes from and why we are to pray for God to rescue us from self.
So when the Devil tempted Jesus to turn stones into bread, He was asking Jesus to break faith in His Father, using His Father's power, and independently use His own powers of divinity instead. Jesus refused.
Only Divine deities have inherit powers of being independent - but they refuse to be independent, and this is why Three Strong Authorities have love from each other as cardinally one flow of love. This is completely different to how pagan family deities work - they function independently and therefore are polytheism
Gnostic writings is the omega apostasy EGW warns us about, as it also was the alpha apostasy in Paul and John's time, is back destroying churches with the idea "faith" is a "believe concept only".
The Apocryphon of John - NHL
"And the Sophia of the Epinoia, being an aeon, conceived a thought from herself and the conception of the invisible Spirit and foreknowledge. She wanted to bring forth a likeness out of herself without the consent of the Spirit, - he had not approved - and without her consort, and without his consideration. And though the person of her maleness had not approved, and she had not found her agreement, and she had thought without the consent of the Spirit and the knowledge of her agreement, (yet) she brought forth. And because of the invincible power which is in her, her thought did not remain idle, and something came out of her which was imperfect and different from her appearance, because she had created it without her consort. And it was dissimilar to the likeness of its mother, for it has another form.
There are other quotes, but this will do, the Holy Spirit cannot create without a consort, so this dribble is pushing a false doctrine all over the world, and it a confusion to say the least.
The only time Jesus showed his own deity as power was when he went to the mountain and changed himself back to His former glory to speak face to face with heaven:
Mt 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
The enemy was overcome by Christ in His human nature. The power of the Saviour’s Godhead was hidden. He overcame in human nature, relying upon God for power. This is the privilege of all. In proportion to our faith will be our victory (The Youth’s Instructor, April 25, 1901). {5BC 1108.6}
So Jesus overcome temptations by using faith - the same way we have to -
EGW: "His prayer was heard. Suddenly the heavens opened, and holy radiance descended upon the mount, enshrouding the Saviour’s form. Divinity from within flashed through humanity and met the glory coming from above. Arising from His prostrate position, Christ stood in godlike majesty. His countenance shone “as the sun,” and His garments were “white as light.” {HLv 285.1}
Rob:” I see this as a faith request and His own divinity coming through His humanity to meet the divinity coming down from the Father, so they both met each other and flashed together as the glory of the sun.
This proves Jesus-YHWH is in fact deity as the Father is deity, and in a rare display (not using faith) the two deity powers rush to meet each other !
Even when the messenger comes to earth in the OT, we see the support here too - the Jesus-YHWH does and uses the power from the Father-YHWH, all the time, again showing that elohiym is always supporting each other.
Ex 23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
Shalom
Ellen agreed with Joseph Smith who rejected the Trinity Doctrine with as much vigor as did Ellen White and her Husband. You're right about that.
"Restorationist Groups" such as the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses & Seventh-day Adventists are the ones that DON'T agree with the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Reformed & Evangelicals. What you had here was individuals who didn't know Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic who had zero business doing what they did. History speaks to this quite clearly.
You're talking about "another Jesus" (not the one in the Bible) because the Jesus in the Bible was driven into the Wilderness by the Holy Spirit so that He could be TESTED by or of the Devil. This happened for the same reason that Scripture records that Jesus was born by a Virgin, was called out of Egypt and every other prophecy that had to be fulfilled. Jesus wasn't tested or tempted by the Devil to see if He would sin - Jesus was tempted / tested to show that He COULDN'T sin. This is why the Father of Lies performed the testing himself. Arian groups have a deep yearning to devalue Jesus and suggesting He could have sinned is the primary way they do it - they've been doing this exact thing in the same way since the 4th century. If you looked into Christian history you'd know this beyond any doubt.
Is there any SDA's here reading this that has something to offer in the way of Bible support for there being multiple "divine deities"? Is this standard SDA understanding?