How does an Adventist get around Jesus statement?
rob
Member
You didn't answer my question.
Isa 28:9 ¶ Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Here is where Bible teaches how the Bible is to be read.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
You are supposed to line up a theme against all the precept upon precepts, here and there across the entire Bible
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Beginning with the Moses torah FIRST. All truth began with Moses and must start with Moses, not the NT as you have done.
You queried the idea of plurality in the the Elohiym. You even quoted the famous Nehemiah Gordon
Ge 20:13 And it came to pass, when ELOHIM (with plural verb) caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother.
"So contrary to the expected rule of Elohim getting a singular verb, here Elohim gets a plural verb. Because of this plural verb, we could literally translate this phrase "gods caused me to wander". From this verse alone it indeed appears that Abraham worshipped multiple gods whom he believed had caused him to wander from his father's house. However, this hardly fits the overall picture."
Gordon has a theory of faith that says the majority of passages over rules the meaning of minor problem ones, whereas a true Bible scholar must fit all Bible contexts into a single overall picture...Every Bible context must make sense. It seems even Abraham knew Elohim meant a "Heavenly kind of powers".
I suggest you answer my simple question in Gen 19:24? How many YHWH are there in the verse? Notice they are in two different places at the same time?
Since one YHWH Abraham saw as a being, we must assume the other YHWH is also a being. Though the NT shape nobody has seen the Most High shape. But you are not even willing to discuss the verse?
And your Gordon fellow is picking here and there, avoiding contexts he does not like.
rob
Member
Do you understand the word achad?
Ex 24:3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.
How many voices replied to Moses question? Answer cardinally one voice, yet millions of people spoke.
How many heart cells have independence in your heart? Answer none of them.
All 16 billion trillion function as cardinally one organ, they all volunteered to give up their independence long ago.
Do you understand what this implies? Surrender, not doing your will but the will of the community.
AN independent cell is called a cancer. Such cells are self serving.
Shalom
You laugh again. Why? Are you two lazy to reply and so take short cuts?
How about answering the verse I gave you, point for point remember, your words?
Gen 19:24 How many YHWH's are there?
Bingo ! Elohim is a group. Really hard question I gave you. Why do you think I gave you a simple verse first?
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rob
Member
Greetings
Elohim NEVER means a group. Can you justify this view of yours with a Bible verse?
(1) Ps 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
Here are two Elohim words, and congregation (ie group)
Tell what this verse means?
(2) Ex 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges;
Judges here is elohim, how any judges are there? Answer a group
(3) Ge 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
How many persons learned good and evil? Answer a group. Note also the term "us"
(4) This is the 12th time I have asked you and you keep refusing to answer the plain Gen 19:24 text
How many YHWH's are there in the verse: Answer two. Bingo - that makes elohim a group !!!!
It's really hard learning Scripture when you do NOT align your theories point by point with all the verses.
Shalom
rob
Member
I don't understand you here
Ps 18:2 The LORD <Y@hovah> is my rock <cela`>, and my fortress <matsuwd>, and my deliverer <palat>; my God <'el>, my strength <tsuwr>, in whom I will trust <chacah>; my buckler <magen>, and the horn <qeren> of my salvation <yesha`>, and my high tower <misgab>.
THis verse is saying" YHWH is a cela" I suggest you go back to Moses torah and read Moses differently.
There are TWO rocks in Deut 32 - ie a group
There are TWO YHWH in Gen 19:24 - ie a group
Mankind is made in His image Gen 2 - ie a group
Love is only portrayed in a group
Shalom
rob
Member
I thought you said Jesus was an angel, so there is only one God with you? Do you even know your own theory is?
You reject my teaching you, my theory of faith. You laughed at 4 Moses verses I showed you.
That is not fair.
Your words May 22 " Sigh. Polytheists trying to read the Trinity into the Bible - from
John 1:1 and the words of JESUS thruout that book!
Churchianity teaches it to mean that "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with Jesus, and Jesus WAS Jesus.
www.christiandiscourse.net
You say "
John 1 says the Word WAS God once, that he was WITH God twice.
Ex 7:1- Has God calling MOSES God.
Seems to me it should be OBVIOUS!
You say "
The word "Elohim" can mean either God, Gods, or divine.
You have a strange definition of elohiym / elohim
Where does your definition fit for pagan gods ?
Where does your definition fit for judges?
What about Adam and Eve and all humans also becoming elohiym?
"You, the ONLY true God" (speaking of his God and Father)- John 17:3.
Did God have a God, much less two OTHERS?
You equate elohim as the same as Father. This is incorrect.
Your word definitions have to fit all the contexts, not the verses you like?
Not all fathers are elohims and thus not all elohims are fathers. Stops making one word mean another word.
Joh 17:1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
is this prayer about a group? A literal Father prayed to by a literal Son? Or is this make believe? An angel pretending to be a Father's Son? I don't need you remarks on verse 3. Verse 1 is already simple and plain.
Therefore elohim is a group. But you refuse to see John 17:1, just as you refuse to see Gen 19:24
Shalom
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rob
Member
What is wrong with worshiping Jesus?
And I suppose you do not worship Jesus, only the FATHER like JW's do?
Are you an active Jehovah Witness?
The JW term Jesus a lesser god - not sure if they term Jesus an angel though?
Shalom
rob
Member
You didn't answer all my questions
And you mean by God, which Hebrew word is that? Elohiym
Is that the God you refer to?
What about Eloah and Shadday and the Son?
But you say the word Elohiym does not mean a group?
But you again do not wish to discuss your view with me using Moses verses.
In your famous presentation:
Joh 17:1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Is this prayer about a literal Father and a literal SON, or is this all make believe? What says you?
It is speaking of a group. SO suddenly your views fall my friend.
And do not try to say this is an angel praying to His God? It does not say this does it?
rob
Member
OK Now be careful when you present here
It is elohim you worship or YHWH (you spell this as Jehovah)
And why the difference between these word meanings?
Is there a difference?
I told you before I am NOT a trinity person. Do you even get my words?
You still did not answer my verse I gave you
Joh 17:1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Is this a prayer of a literal Father and a literal SON?
Notice this does not use the word elohiym or the word YHWH (spelled as Jehovah)
Why do you ignore my questions?
rob
Member
I already know my own experiences and you obviously know yours own experiences, but you are unwilling to share your experiences with me? Why is that? Why are you so afraid?
I remember once I battled with a Catholic over evolution theory, Catholics support evolution, and we posted daily for months and months on the deepest peer review journals on evolution, and He still maintained his evolution believe. Evidence never sways a persons world view. If you have a world view and an experience from your world view, than it is you alone that develops it.
But you are unwilling to share you view with me. I don't care we are different. I have talked with over the years many different world views and not once did their world views baffle me, I was happy to explore their views and why they want to experience what they experience.
Joh 17:1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Is this a prayer of a literal Father and a literal SON?
Notice this does not use the word elohiym or the word YHWH (spelled as Jehovah)
Why do you ignore my question? You have not really answered a single question from me to you since you talk to me.
Why is that? I am willing learn, and you are not willing to teach me. That is rude on your part?
So why are you here if you are not willing to share?
Quote: "You say they are the same person- RIGHT!
What are you talking about? Every Hebrew word has a word meaning that is always unique and different from each other.
Unless the word is a functional descriptor. These are words that describe functions, or actions.
But already you will laugh like you always do because I am talking of my experience, when I really want to understand your experience.
Only a person who support Trinity thinks the Father and the Son are the same person. I battled with a Gnostic Christian for over 4 years on this one question alone. He supports the idea that YHWH has three expressions of Himself, so that YHWH is cardinally one being, with three different expressions. Let me give you a Bible verse of this concept of his:
Eze 1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.
Now these special angels, (later they are called cherubims) have four expressions in their face. What does this mean? I dunno.
But it is used by some to assume Elohim is the same theme, with expressions of His likeness.
So the left hand of YHWH can be feminine as a glory we term the HS and the right hand can be masculine as a term we called Jesus. But the essence of each expression is the same being, only different persons. And because YHWH is omnipresent He can represent Himself as three personal expressions of Himself.
Now we shared over 4,000 posts together we both over 30,000 letters each time, so your sharing at the moment is nothing.
Do you see your God like this fellow did? But you have to answer and be willing to share.
I showed Him this prayer:
How come the Father right hand expression is praying to the Most High expression, when in fact they are the same substance?
I also told him so you idea of a literal Father and a literal Son praying together is a fictitious role playing? It's not real?
These questions stumped him and he tried to avoid such thinking.
Quote:" And quit speaking Hebrew!
What are you asking here? You want me to quit speaking truth to you? Does truth come in English translations?
You are implying you don't want truth? Most people don't want truth, they just want a good time.
Israel was no different:
Nu 11:5 We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the leeks, and the onions, and the garlick: 6 But now our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes.
Israel loved the Burgers from Egypt and hated the Manna from heaven.
These are similes.
SO Israel hated doing faith with God and eating manna as a faith food. They wanted the tasty world food the Opposer offers in abundance.
Re 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Shalom
rob
Member
This GIF animation is something you posted.
But you are not willing to defend your view are you?
What does "churchainity" mean? No such word in the Bible?
Who said our souls are immortal?
Who proclaims shaowl is eternal fires?
You are really messed up my friend.
I thought you wanted "point for point"
But here you picture at least 4 different themes !
You are not consistent, try defending one idea at a time.
But you won't. You just enjoy mocking others.
Mt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
If you wish to remain blind to truth, than I cannot help you, nor can God either.
Jesus left them alone, and taught to only those who listened freely.
So far you have not shared a single idea of yours with me, back up by Moses torah.
And all ideas MUST begin with Moses books first.
Instead you begin with the NT from a fuzzy translation even.
Why entire churches say the entire OT was abolished on the Cross !
So what Bible did Jesus read from I wonder?
What truth was He sharing?
Joh 17:1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
SO this is an angel praying to GOD?
It does not say that.
It says a literal Son is praying too a literal Father? Assuming the NT translation is correct in our cultural English.
But your theories are shot already because this is a group. You don't like a group.
You even posted the rock followed them.
And I showed you the cela rock and tsuwr rock, but this is a group of rocks.
You do not like grouped rocks.
So the angel is speaking for YHWH?
Question: Why can't YHWH speak for Himself?
Can you answer that?
I like a personal God. Your God is not personal. And angel speaks for Him.
Do you have a personal God? Does He speak to you?
Shalom