When did the Son come to this earth?

[Le Roy]

I would like to share some thoughts and conclusions regarding that which I have pondered for some time and I am curious if this rings true with anyone else?

At the fall, humanity was at odds with their Maker. Ellen says that they were given Satan's nature. They were at enmity with God. There was nothing within them that could turn their heart back to God, for that had died on that fateful day. Love was replaced by fear and fleshly desires. I had to ask myself, in this condition how could it be possible that the family of Adam could survive 4000 years before the Savior came on the scene?

The provision was already in place and ready to be put into action. The Son would step down from the throne and give His life to the fallen race, right then and there. He was the enmity against evil that God promised to the serpent, so that the seed of the woman (all her children) would have something that could bring them back to God.

The conclusion I had to come to is that the Son of God was given to humanity while in Eden, to replace that which had perished because of rebellion.
It is written: He was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world
He is the light that lights every man that came into the world. Would not that also include Cain, Able, Seth and so on?


EGW states, "As soon as there was sin, there was a Saviour. He who has given light to all, He who has followed the soul with tender entreaty, seeking to win it from sin to holiness, is in one its advocate and judge. He who through all the ages has been seeking to wrest the captives from the deceiver's grasp, is the one who will pass judgment on every soul. HLv 133.3 "

I've come to believe that the Son, who has lived in every offspring of Adam, is that still small voice that is reaching out and pleading with the Father on each souls behalf. If the soul would feel the divinely supplied need for release from sin, it could accept that heart cry as it's own. If the soul would consent the Son would so identify with its thoughts and aims, so blend its heart and mind into conformity to His will that when obeying Him it would be but carrying out its own impulses. The soul would be thinking God's thoughts after Him. The Son brought with Him into each and every soul certain gifts. His own love for the Father, and an ability to hear the Father's personal instructions to each soul and a willingness to obey the Father and a godly hatred of sin.

4,000 years later the life of Mary's son, who was fully in submission to the Son of God within him, would be a living parable to make clearer the plan for mankind to be fully restored to the image of God.

When I considered the demoniac in Luke 8, it seemed that there was a full and complete possession. As I consider that this capacity of completely filling the soul temple to the point that the spirit and the human act as one, I realize that God must have made this capacity possible for His own use and the devil had hijacked it. If this is the case then I understood in a better way how the Son of God has been bearing the sin of the world from Eden until this day. In each individual the Son feels distinctly the effects of sin and he bears it with us and for us or it with crush us.

"As one with us, He must bear the burden of our guilt and woe. The Sinless One must feel the shame of sin. The peace lover must dwell with strife, the truth must abide with falsehood, purity with vileness. Every sin, every discord, every defiling lust that transgression had brought, was torture to His spirit. DA 111.4" He saw and felt it all. This sounds like a very intimate connection with each human agent.

"That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." Matt. 8:17

Jesus never experienced the myriad of diseases that affect humanity, but the Son of God who is spirit, dwelling within all humanity could bear their iniquity and experience their sicknesses and infirmities in a very real and intimate way.

These words above have given me reason to believe that the Son took up residence in everyone to attempt to save some. When I consider the story I grew up with that he suffered baring the sins of the world for a few hours on the cross, and what I have come to see, that He has suffered the burden of sin from the fall until this day, it is beyond comparison. This kind of sacrificial love cannot be measured.

 

[Chief]

The promise of His coming was first issued in Genesis 3:15 (NKJV): "15And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.” Revelation 13:8 records that the Lamb was slain "since the foundation of the earth", not after fall of man. This means that God already had contingency plans for man should he fall.

4,000 years later the life of Mary's son, who was fully in submission to the Son of God within him, would be a living parable to make clearer the plan for mankind to be fully restored to the image of God.

I am not sure if I get this part clearly. Could you please expound?

Did Abraham see the Day of the Lord?​

In John 8:56 (NKJV): "56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” Abraham lived almost 2000 years before Jesus appeared in Nazareth. How is it that he saw the day of the Lord? Could it be that Jesus had always been there (see John 8:58 (ESV): 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”)?

Jesus' remark that Abraham rejoiced to see His day suggests that Abraham prophetically glimpsed Jesus' future ministry, which brought him joy. Abraham gained insights into Jesus' ministry through various events.

The King-Priest​

In Genesis 14, Abraham defeated four invading kings who had conquered Canaan and captured his nephew Lot. After his victory, Abraham met Melchizedek, king of Salem and priest of God Most High, symbolising the future roles of Jesus. David later prophesied (Psalm 110:1, 4-6) about a future Melchizedek-like figure who would rule at God's right hand, which Hebrews 6:20; 8:1 identifies as Jesus.

The Day of the Lord​

In Genesis 18, three men visited Abraham, one predicting the birth of his son within a year. As they departed, God revealed His plan to judge Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham interceded for the cities, but they lacked enough righteous people. Jesus likened His return, the "day of the Son of Man," to the time of Lot, with similar sudden judgment (Luke 17:28–30). Abraham's example encourages us to intercede for a world approaching judgment.

The Day of Redemption​

The most profound moment was when God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac (Genesis 22). This event foreshadowed God offering His own Son, Jesus, on Mount Moriah. Abraham's faith was displayed as he trusted in God's provision, seen in the sacrificial ram and fulfilled by Jesus, the Lamb of God (John 1:29). Abraham believed in Isaac's resurrection, mirroring Jesus' own resurrection and the redemption it brings.

Abraham glimpsed the 'Day of the Lord'. We too can take a glimpse of Christ, our High Priest, interceding for us and offering forgiveness and eternal life. We rejoice in knowing the Lamb of God that was slain since the foundation of the earth who forgives our sins (Revelation 13:8).

 

[Chief]

The Bible describes the carnal heart and the condition of men without God and it's a very dark picture. I believe that something spiritual within our first parents died on the day of the fall and there was absolutely nothing within them that could have been drawn out to God in that condition, for as Ellen states they had the nature of Satan which gave them a Satanic enmity towards God. Therefore, God had to do something or they would have been forever within the clutches of the enemy.

Please share/cite the reference material.

Yes the plan of redemption was not an afterthought but it was there in place ready to be initiated when sin entered. "as soon as there was seen there was a savior”. Not 4000 yrs. later.

Is this true?

I agree that the plan of salvation was not an afterthought.

So He promised that He would give them enmity towards Satan which would counteract Satan's hatred of God. The carnal mind cannot hate anything without it contaminating its own being. But there is something cleansing about God's hatred of evil. In fact you might say that it is a part of His love. So I had to conclude the only way that they could hate evil as God does is by having God's Son in them, hating evil for them. This must be accepted and consented to, which is different to Christ dwelling in the soul by faith in a personal relationship. Much like the Son providing fallen man with a conscience, that could lead to full salvation.

Romans 8:7-9 NKJV - "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

Christ's indwelling in us is a conscious undertaking. See John 15:7-9 NKJV - "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love." Notice the conditionality set in this verse. There is a part for each one of us to play if Christ is to dwell in us; we must abide in Him.

See also Revelation 3:20 NKJV - "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." You have to open the door and welcome Him in. He will not force His way in.

Scripture talks about hearing the voice of God in many places and it implies on a continual daily basis even in the most mundane things, such as turning to the left or turning to the right. I believe that Adam and Eve lost that ability as it died that day. They also lost the ability to love God and obey or to even feel a drawn out heart toward God. This is the condition of the lost soul.

Is this true?

Jeremiah 29:13 NKJV - "And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart." This is also a conditionality. God is ever nearby, but we must be intentional in seeking Him and we'll find Him. He's not hiding, He wants us to practice our free will so that our love for Him is genuine and not imposed.

Deuteronomy 4:29-31 NKJV - "But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. When you are in distress, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, when you turn to the LORD your God and obey His voice (for the LORD your God is a merciful God), He will not forsake you nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them."

Isaiah 30:21 NKJV - "Your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, “This is the way, walk in it,” Whenever you turn to the right hand Or whenever you turn to the left."Do you consider it to be within the realm of God's plan that the Son, Who is a spirit to live in us and provided a godly hatred of sin as well as a love for the Father and the ability to hear that still small voice and follow His leading?

It just seems to ring with the love of God that He would implant something (Someone) within man that could draw him back to Himself. And if the soul would identify with the drawn out heart of the Son to the Father and allow it to become its own drawn out desires it would lead back to the Father, which otherwise could not happen.
Does this sound true to you?
These two statements below caused me to consider that the Son of God and the son of Mary were two distinct beings. One was divine the other was human. And the Son in you or I is the same Son as possessed Mary's son.
"Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person—the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible." LHU 76

Please clarify. Do you mean to say that "Son of Mary" and "Son of God" are two distinct persons?

1 Timothy 3:16 KJV - "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

Romans 8:3 says that Jesus "was made‭‭ of‭ the seed‭ of David‭ according‭ to the flesh‭;‭"
Does this clearly state that he was a direct genetic descendent of David? He was under the working of the great law of heredity according to EGW. Therefore he was indeed human and a son of Adam. However the divine Son who was in him from conception was given consent to totally control his humanity and deal with all the hereditary baggage of Adam overcoming it all and burying it in the tomb.

Isaiah 7:13-15 NKJV - "Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good."

Consider reviewing Fundamental Belief #4.

"God is seeking to make His church the continued incarnation of Christ." PCL 23
When we think of the incarnation we automatically think of Jesus but here Ellen states that we all are to be included in the incarnation, that is to say God living in our humanity. God in human flesh. I must decrease that He may increase.
Does this sound true?

I believe that we are sanctified, justified and glorified by faith. Our best attempt at righteousness is but filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6) and only the imputed righteousness of Christ can make us acceptable before God (1 Corinthians 1:30; 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9).

 

[Le Roy]

Please share/cite the reference material.

Romans 8:7 Isaiah 1:6
"After tempting man to sin, Satan claimed the earth as his, and styled himself the prince of this world. Having conformed to his own nature the father and mother of our race, he thought to establish here his empire." DA 114

I agree that the plan of salvation was not an afterthought.


Romans 8:7-9 NKJV - "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

Christ's indwelling in us is a conscious undertaking. See John 15:7-9 NKJV - "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love." Notice the conditionality set in this verse. There is a part for each one of us to play if Christ is to dwell in us; we must abide in Him.

See also Revelation 3:20 NKJV - "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." You have to open the door and welcome Him in. He will not force His way in.

I fully agree with this. For The Son to control our life it is a conscious decision. However this is not what I'm trying to explain. Without God providing something (or someOne) within humanity to replace what perished in Eden, we could never even respond or choose to invite the Son to dwell in us and be our life.
Humanity was enlisted in a war against God. Satan was in control of our humanity for we had his nature and his enmity toward God. We had no more desire towards God than Satan did.
The enmity that God was going to give to our first parents was not a thing or substance, it came in the person of His Son. It just seems to me that the Son as a still small voice or as a seed within us, crying out to the Father on our behalf is this promised Gift. This is an effort on the part of God to cause the soul to be drawn into the Son's own longing desire to be with the Father. This would give the soul what it needed to consciously choose to accept the Son’s desire as its own. "He who through all the ages has been seeking to wrest the captives from the deceiver's grasp," HLv 133
In this He would be our advocate pleading to the Father on our behalf. If we are quiet, His longing could be felt and we could vicariously enter into His pleadings. Therefore we are accepting it is our own hunger for God. When we choose to identify with His voice, as our own, we would be giving our permission for Him to begin to take over our whole being.
I believe that all this came in the Gift of Enmity, without which we were lost.

Jeremiah 29:13 NKJV - "And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart." This is also a conditionality. God is ever nearby, but we must be intentional in seeking Him and we'll find Him. He's not hiding, He wants us to practice our free will so that our love for Him is genuine and not imposed.

What Jeremiah has written is correct. However the heart is deceitfully wicked... So how could we do that unless we were given this Gift of enmity? Without witch we could not begin to 'seek'.

Deuteronomy 4:29-31 NKJV - "But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. When you are in distress, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, when you turn to the LORD your God and obey His voice (for the LORD your God is a merciful God), He will not forsake you nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them."

It seems that in humanity's lost condition, Adam and his descendants could no longer 'hear His voice', without God first supplying them with that special Gift.
In the EGW quote above it states that through all the ages the Son has been seeking to wrest the captives from Satan's grasp. I am left to wonder is he doing this from outside or is there a divinely supplied internal component that is given?

Please clarify. Do you mean to say that "Son of Mary" and "Son of God" are two distinct persons?

Yes! Just as you and the Son who dwells within you are two distinct persons!!! This is the picture that comes to me. In the development of the Plan of Redemption the Deity looked down through the ages and saw that Mary's son would be one through whom they would fulfill all their will. So the Son was manifested in a human in such a manner that would increase the knowledge of redemption. It has been an ongoing revelation of the controversy and it is nearing its climax. God and man becoming one was the only way to save humanity and vindicate His love and justice before the universe.

1 Timothy 3:16 KJV - "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

‭
Col. 1:27 "‭To whom‭ God‭ would‭‭ make known‭‭ what‭ ‭is‭ the riches‭ of the glory‭ of this‭ mystery‭ among‭ the Gentiles‭; which‭ is‭‭ Christ‭ in‭ you‭, the hope‭ of glory‭:‭
Not only in Mary's son but in all the redeemed God's Son will be manifest in the flesh. Gal 2:20 "I am crucified‭‭ with Christ‭: nevertheless‭ I live‭‭; yet not‭ I‭, but‭ Christ‭ liveth‭‭ in‭ me‭: and‭ the life which‭ I‭‭ now‭ live‭‭ in‭ the flesh‭ I live‭‭ by‭ the faith‭ of the Son‭ of God‭, who‭ loved‭‭ me‭, and‭ gave‭‭ himself‭ for‭ me‭.‭"
Phil. 2:13 "‭For‭ it is‭‭ God‭ which‭ worketh‭‭ in‭ you‭ both‭ to will‭‭ and‭ to do‭‭ of‭ ‭his‭ good pleasure‭.‭"
2Cor 6:16 "God‭ hath said‭‭,‭ I will dwell‭‭ in‭ them‭, and‭ walk in‭‭ ‭them‭; and‭ I will be‭‭ their‭ God‭, and‭ they‭ shall be‭‭ my‭ people‭.‭
And one more, 2Thes. 1:10 "‭When‭ he shall come‭‭ to be glorified‭‭ in‭ his‭ saints‭, and‭ to be admired‭‭ in‭ all‭ them that believe‭‭..."

I was taught that Jesus had an advantage for he was God. The unspoken part was, "and you're not so you have an excuse for failings." Paul writes that "in him we live and move and find our being" and I believe that in us He lives and moves and expresses His Being. Father wants us to look to Jesus and be just like him... dead to self and fully possessed of His Son

In my original post I pointed out that we have been taught that Jesus bore the sins of the world on the cross, suffering for many hours bearing those sins. But if the Son has been living within humanity bearing our sicknesses our infirmities and our sins and all of it from the time of the fall until today, it makes my original understanding very tiny in comparison. That's why I stated that the life of Jesus was a living parable. What we are to see in the cross is to open our eyes to how every day The Son of God is crucified, every day he suffers bearing our evil so that it does not totally crush us. The magnitude of it leaves me feeling like the wind has been taken out of my sails. Looking to the example of Calvary we see that the Son of God sacrificed His life on the throne, with the adoration of all heaven, to come and dwell in humanity and bear all of our evil for 6000 years causes me feel totally undone and to wonder, what manner of love is this?

Isaiah 7:13-15 NKJV - "Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good."

I don't see where this makes Romans 1:3 of none effect. "Born of the seed of David according to the flesh. Or EGW's statement that he was under the working of the great law of heredity.
I use to think thatGod turned His Son into a human embryo and planted Him in Mary's womb. If that were the case then His flesh came from a different source than mine. I am left with no other option than Jesus was an egg in Mary's ovary. Geneticly linked to David and by extention Abraham and Adam. " For 4000 years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of his degradation." HLv 71.2

Consider reviewing Fundamental Belief #4.

I watched the video. He referenced 1 Pet. 1:20 "Who verily‭ was foreordained‭‭ before‭ the foundation‭ of the world‭, but‭ was manifest‭‭ in‭ these last‭ times‭ for‭ you‭,‭" Being manifest means to be seen. God chose a descendent of Adam for the right time to manifest what He had given to Adam after the fall. Jesus manifested the love and enmity of the promise in clear unmistakable brightness.
One other thing that I would like to draw a comparison to. When the demons spoke to Jesus through the possessed man, it was not the man himself who was speaking. We cannot consider that the man was a demon but he was possessed of another entity, another being. There were two entities to be considered. Jesus toss the demons into some pigs and then he dealt with the man himself. In the same way they were many things that came from the lips of Jesus that could not be attributed to his humanity. His humanity had not existed in the time of Abraham. Nor was it manifest at creation. Jesus said that He and the Father would come and dwell in the dicyples. But the humanity of Jesus would not be able to do that. However the One who was speaking, was a Spiritual being, the Son of God, He could very readily dwell in each and everyone of them. So it is easy to take many texts that apply to the Son of God and it would be erroneous to equate them with Jesus the human son of Mary who was a descendent of David.
We have no problem understanding the scriptures that say Christ can dwell in us because we are a temple for His indwelling, and by that I mean the Son of God. But we are somehow hit with a cognitive dissonance when we think of Jesus human temple being filled with by the divine Son of God.
I think it comes out of Catholic dogma that made Jesus a God. Which makes him high, elevated and different from us. But I think an aspect of the ongoing reformation is to understand for what purpose divinity was combined with humanity in the son of Mary. It was done so that we can see what God has given to each of us, not just one individual.

 

[Chief]

I believe that all this came in the Gift of Enmity, without which we were lost.

I agree that when man fell in the garden of Eden, we automatically became God's enemies. Howver in Genesis 3:15 NIV - "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” God gave a reassuring proclamation in that He reclaimed us by recreating in us the spirit to hate evil as highlighted in the verse above.

What Jeremiah has written is correct. However the heart is deceitfully wicked... So how could we do that unless we were given this Gift of enmity? Without witch we could not begin to 'seek'.

Romans 12:2 NIV - "Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will." The transformation is a continuous process. It happens when se stick to God's corner (by studiously applying ourselves to His word).

In the EGW quote above it states that through all the ages the Son has been seeking to wrest the captives from Satan's grasp. I am left to wonder is he doing this from outside or is there a divinely supplied internal component that is given?

I have lifted the excerpt below from the Sabbath School Lesson for Thursday April 18, 2024.

The Greek word for “mind” in this passage is noema. It literally means our perception or mental faculties. The SDA Bible Commentary makes an enlightening statement about this verse. “The battle between Christ and Satan is a battle for the minds of men. (Rom. 7:23, 25; 12:2; 2 Cor. 3:14, 11:3; Phil. 2:5, 4:7, 8). Satan’s principal work is to blind or darken men’s minds. He does this by keeping them from the study of God’s Word, by deranging the powers of the mind through the excesses of body and soul, by wholly occupying the mind through the things of this life, and by appealing to pride and self-exaltation.” —Volume 6, p. 854.​

God does not control human mind remotely. He is a very present God in every situation (Psalm 46:1).

Yes! Just as you and the Son who dwells within you are two distinct persons!!! This is the picture that comes to me. In the development of the Plan of Redemption the Deity looked down through the ages and saw that Mary's son would be one through whom they would fulfill all their will. So the Son was manifested in a human in such a manner that would increase the knowledge of redemption. It has been an ongoing revelation of the controversy and it is nearing its climax. God and man becoming one was the only way to save humanity and vindicate His love and justice before the universe.

I am not convinced that "Son of Mary" and "Son of God" are two distinct persons. That is why I quoted Isaiah about a virgin bearing a son who shall be called Emmanuel, God with us. If "Son of God" merely possessed the body of "Son of Mary", then how comes Mary Magdalene and the other Mary did not find a body in the tomb on the resurrection morning (Mathew 28:6)? Thomas touched Him after resurrection to confirm that He was real (John 20:24-31). He literally ascended to heaven while His disciples watched Him go (Acts 1:10-11).

Jesus never experienced the myriad of diseases that affect humanity, but the Son of God who is spirit, dwelling within all humanity could bear their iniquity and experience their sicknesses and infirmities in a very real and intimate way.

In my original post I pointed out that we have been taught that Jesus bore the sins of the world on the cross, suffering for many hours bearing those sins. But if the Son has been living within humanity bearing our sicknesses our infirmities and our sins and all of it from the time of the fall until today, it makes my original understanding very tiny in comparison. That's why I stated that the life of Jesus was a living parable. What we are to see in the cross is to open our eyes to how every day The Son of God is crucified, every day he suffers bearing our evil so that it does not totally crush us. The magnitude of it leaves me feeling like the wind has been taken out of my sails. Looking to the example of Calvary we see that the Son of God sacrificed His life on the throne, with the adoration of all heaven, to come and dwell in humanity and bear all of our evil for 6000 years causes me feel totally undone and to wonder, what manner of love is this?

Isaiah 54: 3 WEB - "Surely he has borne our sickness and carried our suffering; yet we considered him plagued, struck by God, and afflicted." and Hebrews 4:13 KJV - "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Jesus understands our situation because He was in every aspect human, facing the very same challenges we face, yet he triumphed overall. In Him, we have victory assured.

I was taught that Jesus had an advantage for he was God. The unspoken part was, "and you're not so you have an excuse for failings." Paul writes that "in him we live and move and find our being" and I believe that in us He lives and moves and expresses His Being. Father wants us to look to Jesus and be just like him... dead to self and fully possessed of His Son

I would rephrase it and say, "and you're not so you have grace for recompense" making it a statement of hope rather than of despair and hopelessness.

 

[Le Roy]

Chief wrote:
"He reclaimed us by recreating in us the spirit to hate evil as highlighted in the verse above."
========
This sounds like God reset the clock and replaced that which had died. Yet the result of disobedience was death, not, "Here is a little something to help, now lets try it again."
I don't mean to be sarcastic Chief, but the central fact in the plan of redemption was for the Son to be given to humanity. We had lost our life and He is given to us to be a far greater type of life.
1John 5:11,12 "And‭ this‭ is‭‭ the record‭, that‭ God‭ hath given‭‭ to us‭ eternal‭ life‭, and‭ this‭ life‭ is‭‭ in‭ his‭ Son‭.‭ He that hath‭‭ the Son‭ hath‭‭ life‭; ‭and‭ he that hath‭‭ not‭ the Son‭ of God‭ hath‭‭ not‭ life‭.‭"
The new testament says that we are dead by crucifixion and are new creatures by resurrection because the Son is now living in us and being our life. It is the Son who leads us to the cross and the life of the Son that raises us up to new life.
The body of Christ is not a spiritually speaking symbol like a 'student body'. It is literally His physical body in which He lives.
Eph. 5:30 "‭For‭ we are‭‭ members‭ of his‭ body‭, of‭ his‭ flesh‭, and‭ of‭ his‭ bones‭.‭"
Is He really living in us? Are we really partakers of His nature by His presence in us or is the divine nature some thing that can exist apart from the Son?
Perhaps the knowledge of the plan to redeem us was dimly seen and understood in the sacrificial symbols, but I cannot grasp that the gift of God's Son living within was only given 4,000 years later. Why would God give us something that was not also available to our ancestors as well.
"As soon as there was sin, there was a Saviour. He who has given light to all, He who has followed the soul with tender entreaty, seeking to win it from sin to holiness, is in one its advocate and judge. He who through all the ages has been seeking to wrest the captives from the deceiver's grasp, is the one who will pass judgment on every soul. HLv 133.3
Can you see how this can be so intimate by working within rather than standing outside?
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Chief wrote:
God does not control human mind remotely. He is a very present God in every situation (Psalm 46:1).
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I Agree "If we consent He will so identify with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds in accordance to His will that when obeying Him we will be but carrying out our own impulses" DA 668
I truly believe He is doing this work while personally living within.
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Chief wrote:
Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will." The transformation is a continuous process. It happens when se stick to God's corner (by studiously applying ourselves to His word).
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Scripture uses words like, 'listen' and 'hear', in reference to obedience and belief, Eve was asked, "Did God say.... Jesus was asked, "If you are the Son..." in both instances there was a challenge to what God SAID. 40 days before Jesus heard, "This is my beloved Son.." Abraham followed what he heard from God. ( I don't say to not read or study) but we are to Hear His voice within. It may not be audible and only more that a divine unction but, "My sheep hear my voice..." "Today if you hear my voice..." If we are not quiet enough to hear His personal will, daily, moment by moment, all the study in the world will be insufficient to lead us home. Study is important but to listen and obey is a more excellent way.
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Chief wrote:
"I am not convinced that "Son of Mary" and "Son of God" are two distinct persons."
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"Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person—the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible." LHU 76

This quote was very surprising and revealing when I first read it. She writes of two distinct natures and two distinct beings. Also he was of the seed of David according to the flesh Rom. 1:3
I would ask, What is so disagreeable to the idea of the Son possessing a human like you or me and showing us how to lay down our life, daily? We are then told that the Son would do the same in us if we allow Him to.
Yet there is a difference, our life in the Son begins with our crucifixion We are gifted with death and the resurrection life as a new creature, which gives us an advantage that Jesus did not have. The Son in him had to work it out for us and then pass it on as a gift.
I find it harder to accept that God some how turned His Son into a human embryo and placed Him in Mary's womb. If that were true His flesh would then have come from another source than ours. How could it be a fallen nature like ours if its origin was such?
You mention the virgin birth. Is it so difficult for God to kick start an egg with the genetic line of David in Mary's ovary and allow the pregnancy to go forward?
We are told that the Son came to die in our place, yet Ellen states above that, "Deity did not die, that would be impossible." I had to ask myself, "Can you kill God?" No!
The death of the Son was not about nails and a cross, it is far more than we can grasp. He 'died' to all that He was except for His Sonship and love for the Father. He laid it all down and became a helpless suppliant upon the Father. He gave up His power and wisdom. He was subject to live and be wherever the Father willed Him to be. No longer omnipresent but only present within the human family to bear their sins, weaknesses and infirmities. He condescended to the lowest place to demonstrate that God would never ask us to do something that He was not also willing to do Himself first. This death was not an extinction of life but a death to self. The cross was for our humanity. It must be mortified for this is the sentence promised. Our Adam nature must die and the only thing that is resurrected and translated is our individuality, personhood and character. Everything else about us must be destroyed.
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Chief wrote:
If "Son of God" merely possessed the body of "Son of Mary", then how comes Mary Magdalene and the other Mary did not find a body in the tomb on the resurrection morning (Mathew 28:6)? Thomas touched Him after resurrection to confirm that He was real (John 20:24-31). He literally ascended to heaven while His disciples watched Him go (Acts 1:10-11).
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It was the life that was in the Son that raised Mary's son from the dead. Divinity and humanity were combined and a new creature was born out of the tomb. Sin and Satan were defeated. What He brought to pass in Jesus is His gift to us. This is what is meant by the new birth, it is resurrection life.

 

[Chief]

This sounds like God reset the clock and replaced that which had died. Yet the result of disobedience was death, not, "Here is a little something to help, now lets try it again."

Let me put the excerpt from fundamental belief #7: Nature of Man here so that I do not miscommunicate what I have in mind.

Man and woman were made in the image of God with individuality, the power and freedom to think and to do. Though created free beings, each is an indivisible unity of body, mind, and spirit, dependent upon God for life and breath and all else. When our first parents disobeyed God, they denied their dependence upon Him and fell from their high position under God. The image of God in them was marred and they became subject to death. Their descendants share this fallen nature and its consequences. They are born with weaknesses and tendencies to evil. But God in Christ reconciled the world to Himself and by His Spirit restores in penitent mortals the image of their Maker. Created for the glory of God, they are called to love Him and one another, and to care for their environment. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:7; Ps. 8:4-8; Acts 17:24-28; Gen. 3; Ps. 51:5; Rom. 5:12-17; 2 Cor. 5:19, 20; Ps. 51:10; 1 John 4:7, 8, 11, 20; Gen. 2:15.)​

You can review this belief and let me know what you think.

"Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person—the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible." LHU 76

Humanity and divinity blending in Godhead bodily makes perfect sense. I also agree that God cannot die, that is why Christ said that he laid his life down that he may take it up again (John 10:17-18).

It was the life that was in the Son that raised Mary's son from the dead. Divinity and humanity were combined and a new creature was born out of the tomb. Sin and Satan were defeated. What He brought to pass in Jesus is His gift to us. This is what is meant by the new birth, it is resurrection life.

What do you say about John 10:17-18 ESV: "For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

 

[Le Roy]

Let me put the excerpt from fundamental belief #7: Nature of Man here so that I do not miscommunicate what I have in mind.

Man and woman were made in the image of God with individuality, the power and freedom to think and to do. Though created free beings, each is an indivisible unity of body, mind, and spirit, dependent upon God for life and breath and all else. When our first parents disobeyed God, they denied their dependence upon Him and fell from their high position under God. The image of God in them was marred and they became subject to death. Their descendants share this fallen nature and its consequences. They are born with weaknesses and tendencies to evil. But God in Christ reconciled the world to Himself and by His Spirit restores in penitent mortals the image of their Maker. Created for the glory of God, they are called to love Him and one another, and to care for their environment. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:7; Ps. 8:4-8; Acts 17:24-28; Gen. 3; Ps. 51:5; Rom. 5:12-17; 2 Cor. 5:19, 20; Ps. 51:10; 1 John 4:7, 8, 11, 20; Gen. 2:15.)​

You can review this belief and let me know what you think.

This description of man's nature does not really address what I have desired to share. Ellen states "Each fresh search will reveal something more deeply interesting than has yet been unfolded. The subject is inexhaustible. The study of the incarnation of Christ, His atoning sacrifice and mediatorial work, will employ the mind of the diligent student as long as time shall last; and looking to heaven with its unnumbered years he will exclaim, “Great is the mystery of godliness.” COL 133.4
She also says that we must remove our shoes as we are on holy ground.
Through the years as I have studied I am always brought back to the incarnation and the plan of redemption. Along the way I have had to ask myself, Is what I am coming to understand glorifying and expanding the work of God and His love for humanity, or am I treading carelessly so that the nature and character of God and His plan for humanity becomes less than what is revealed, or worse yet leads to heresy and deception.
The more I have looked the more I have been humbled as my previous conceptions have been overturned by greater light and understanding. When I compare what I had previously understood on these subjects with what has come to me over the years, it is like comparing Lincoln Logs with a real log home. The sacrifice of the Father and the Son to save us has become so immense I hardly have words to express my feelings about it.
I am reminded of the first time I saw Yosemite Valley. As the car rounded the curve and I looked down the valley my mouth dropped open with a gasp. Even though I had seen pictures, they were as nothing to prepare me for what I saw in person. On subsequent visits I have stood in the parking lot and look again at that same sene with fresh tears in my eyes. That is kinda how I feel when I see new light on these subjects.
So perhaps you might begin to sense my strong desire to share what has been shown to me. I realize that it appears comes against much of Adventist teaching good night and so the teaching was wrong with the pictures of diminished glass darkly. I have come to see that many Christians are so afraid of deception that anything differing from church teaching is tended to be looked at with a sideways glance. The usual response is to prove it wrong rather than study to see if it is true. Are we to think that there was no more light to be revealed? I think not. I do not know of any new or brighter light regarding scriptural teaching has been brought forth since Ellen passed over 100 years ago. In this present age I have seen error enter into the church but no new spiritual light. All I can do is suggest that you take what I say to your closet and ask Father.
"The divine Spirit works through the powers and faculties given to man. Of ourselves, we are not able to bring the purposes and desires and inclinations into harmony with the will of God; but if we are “willing to be made willing,” the Saviour will accomplish this for us, “Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.” 2 Corinthians 10:5. AA 482
Ellen writes of the faculties of the mind, the intellect, reason, memory etc. The will is called the kingly faculty for it takes all the input of the other faculties and chooses what course to pursue.
I believe that what died in Eden was their 'spiritual faculty'. That life line connection to our Creator. At the fall love was replaced by fear and fleshly desires. The evidence of that was seen right away.
Again I have to repeat, "As soon as there was sin, there was a Saviour. He who has given light to all, He who has followed the soul with tender entreaty, seeking to win it from sin to holiness, is in one its advocate and judge. He who through all the ages has been seeking to wrest the captives from the deceiver's grasp, is the one who will pass judgment on every soul. HLv 133.3 "
Since the soul temple is His, He moved in in a limited way. Providing just the necessities that would give mankind that which would draw them back to the Lover of their soul. His presence could do no more unless invited to do so. Salvation and deliverance could only come by consent.
Let me know what you personally think.

Humanity and divinity blending in Godhead bodily makes perfect sense. I also agree that God cannot die, that is why Christ said that he laid his life down that he may take it up again (John 10:17-18).

This is not clear regarding the quote regarding the son of Mary and the Son of God. Is this light beginning to dawn?

What do you say about John 10:17-18 ESV: "For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

He laid down His life in Eden of His own accord on the cross He brought Jesus to that same laying down. At the Father's call the life that was in Him brought Mary's son out of the tomb. And for clarity, it was Christ in him, that was his now divine life now. The Father seeing how the Son was able to carry Jesus through 33 years in victory was for me, why the Father love him. The acid test was complete. If God could bring one man through a victorious death, He could do it with any man if they were cooperative. Thus what was accomplished in one could be a gift to all.

 

[Chief]

I am still reading, will be back with a comment.

 

[Le Roy]

I just reread my last post and found some typing or cut and paste errors. Please forgive that. I hope there is enough to consider and reply about despite any confusing sentences.

 

[Cassandra]

4,000 years later the life of Mary's son, who was fully in submission to the Son of God within him, would be a living parable to make clearer the plan for mankind to be fully restored to the image of God.

Jesus was born of Mary , but had no earthly father. the person you describe is merely a MAN with a human father. It does not fall in line with Jesus.
I remember hearing Kenneth Copeland say that God told him (ahem) that he could've done the same thing Jesus did. Wrong again.

That argument sounds like a mix of Gnostic and Adoptionist ideas, which are not in line with biblical teaching. The Bible is clear that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and Jesus, Mary’s son, are one and the same person—fully divine and fully human from the moment of His conception.

Refuting the Argument Biblically:​

1. Jesus Did Not "Choose" a Man Named Jesus to Indwell​

The claim that Jesus "looked through history" and chose a man to embody Him is similar to Adoptionism, an early heresy that denied Jesus’ divinity at birth and taught that He became divine later. The Bible rejects this idea:

• Luke 1:35 – The angel told Mary: “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.”
  • Jesus was already the Son of God at conception, not a mere man later chosen.
• John 1:1, 14 – “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.”
  • The eternal Son became flesh, not that He found a human to inhabit.
• Philippians 2:5-8 – Jesus “being in the form of God... emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.”
  • This shows the pre-existence of Jesus and His choice to take on humanity, not indwell a pre-existing human.

2. Jesus Has Always Been Fully God and Fully Man​

The idea that "Jesus has always been in all of us" is more like New Age or Pantheistic thinking, not biblical Christianity. The Bible teaches that:

• Colossians 2:9 – “For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.”
• Hebrews 13:8 – “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.”
  • He did not evolve into divinity or find a "worthy" man to indwell—He was always the eternal Son.

3. Jesus as the Unique Son of God​

The argument being made implies that anyone could have been Jesus if they were obedient enough. However, the Bible clearly teaches that only Jesus is the sinless, unique Son of God:

• John 3:16 – “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son...”
• Matthew 1:23 – “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel (which means, God with us).”
  • This affirms that Jesus was not a mere human chosen later, but God with us from birth.

4. The Holy Spirit Dwells in Believers, but That Doesn’t Mean We Are Jesus​

• The idea that "Jesus has always been in all of us" is not biblical. While believers receive the Holy Spirit upon salvation (Romans 8:9), that does not mean Jesus has always been in all people.
• Jesus is distinct from the Holy Spirit, and not all people have Him in them—only those who believe in Him (John 14:16-17).

Final Thought: Jesus Is Not Just a Man, He Is God in the Flesh​

This argument is a dangerous departure from biblical truth. It undermines the uniqueness of Christ’s incarnation and His eternal divine nature. If Jesus were just a man whom God "found," then:

1. He would have inherited sin like all humans (Romans 3:23).
2. His sacrifice would not have been sufficient for salvation.
3. He would not be able to forgive sins as God (Mark 2:5-7).

 

[Le Roy]

Jesus was born of Mary , but had no earthly father. the person you describe is merely a MAN with a human father.

Hello Cassandra, I do not hold the believe he had an earthly father. But his mother, and therefore, he were genetically linked to David and Abraham and therefore by extension of the seed of Adam. Romans 1:3 "...which‭ was made‭‭ of‭ the seed‭ of David‭ according‭ to the flesh‭;"
Heb. 2:14& 16 "‭Forasmuch‭ then‭ as the children‭ are partakers‭‭ of flesh‭ and‭ blood‭, he‭‭ also‭ himself‭ likewise‭ took part‭‭ of the same‭; that‭ through‭ death‭ he might destroy‭‭ him that had‭‭ the power‭ of death‭, that is‭‭, the devil‭;‭....‭For‭ verily‭ he took‭‭ not‭ on‭‭ ‭him the nature of‭ angels‭; but‭ he took on‭‭ ‭him‭ the seed‭ of Abraham‭.‭"
Is this correct?

2. Jesus Has Always Been Fully God and Fully Man​

Cassandra, are you saying that there was a human aspect, content or quality involved in creation? Please clarify.

The idea that "Jesus has always been in all of us" is more like New Age or Pantheistic thinking, not biblical Christianity. The Bible teaches that:

I believe that the core point of the plan of redemption provides that the Son is to live in us (His body) to give us His eternal life? Consider what Paul has said about the indwelling, "it is no longer I but Christ who lives in me." for it is God who lives in you to both will and do according to His good pleasure." "this is the record that God has given us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He that has the Son has life.." "...for you are dead and your life is hidden with God in Christ"
John 14: 16-23 Jesus promises that the Spirit the Father and the Son to dwell within humanity.
Of course this is not the indwelling as I describe what took place after the fall. If you read my original post it will be more fully explained.
What I saw Cassandra, is that man was without any hope of returning to their Creator, as all that connected them to Him had perished. So how could they find their way back? They could not unless the plan to redeem was initiated. The statement below caused me to rethink what I had previously been taught.
"As soon as there was sin, there was a Saviour. He who has given light to all, He who has followed the soul with tender entreaty, seeking to win it from sin to holiness, is in one its advocate and judge. He who through all the ages has been seeking to wrest the captives from the deceiver's grasp, is the one who will pass judgment on every soul. HLv 133.3 "
We are created to be a residence for the Creator. Since our 'spiritual faculty' had died, the Son who covenanted that as soon as there was sin He would be there to replaced that hole in our nature with His own self, to give us His desire to return to the Father. Something like a conscience, He was there within pleading on our behalf as though it was we ourselves doing the pleading. If we could be quiet we might connect to that plea and own it as if it were our own. In that way we could begin to connect with heaven once more through the Son. Without forced intrusion but by gentle identification He would work.
As the soul does this the Son could begin to enter by request as stated above in Paul's writing. At first as a still small voice like a small child who Needs His Father and then progress to delivered status growing up into the fullness of the stature of the Son of God. This is the mystery of God, Christ in you...
Obviously most of humanity would smother that voice. But He was there in the darkest soul, giving all an equal opportunity for life.

Colossians 2:9 – “For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.”

Verse 10 "And‭ ye are‭‭ complete‭‭ in‭ him‭,..."

I use to think that Father somehow turned His Son into a human embryo and placed Him in Mary's womb, but that would mean that His humanity or flesh came from some other source than ours. I had to drop that thought as it does not have any scriptural support.

4. The Holy Spirit Dwells in Believers, but That Doesn’t Mean We Are Jesus​

Having the Holy Spirit, the Father and Son dwelling in you does not make you Jesus. No, you are Cassandra who's soul temple can be filled with all the fullness. Jesus had a very specific mission. God took a son of Adam with the same nature as we and demonstrated what He is willing to do in every soul who will submit as Jesus did. He was the model man, the prime example. The Son in you will bring you to your own crosses every day and bring you into His death as He did in Jesus. Jesus died to show us how it is done.

• Jesus is distinct from the Holy Spirit, and not all people have Him in them—only those who believe in Him (John 14:16-17).

By replacing our lost spirituality to help us by His pleading on our behalf we may be brought to the place where we can believe in Him. There is a difference in His presence as a help and when He has our consent to come in and be our life. That is why it says in 1John 5:12 "...he that hath not the Son hath not eternal life."

Final Thought: Jesus Is Not Just a Man, He Is God in the Flesh​

If God dwells in you, is not that God in your flesh? That does not make you God for you would have to be nothing in your own eyes. You must decrease and He will increase. You do get to come along for the ride.

This argument is a dangerous departure from biblical truth. It undermines the uniqueness of Christ’s incarnation and His eternal divine nature. If Jesus were just a man whom God "found," then:

2Pet. 14 We are made partakers of the divine nature. Or better said the divine nature takes hold of us if we are willing.

He would have inherited sin like all humans (Romans 3:23).

To have a fallen nature does not make you a sinner. Yielding to sin makes you a sinner. "He took our nature and overcame, that we through taking His nature might overcome. Made “in the likeness of sinful flesh” He lived a sinless life. DA 311

1. He would not be able to forgive sins as God (Mark 2:5-7).

It was God in him who was doing the forgiving. The Son in Jesus was connecting with the Son in those who need forgiveness. Then the Son in them could work that forgiveness into the life of the needy believer. He works from without and within.
I hope this brings some clarity and eliminates some confusion about what I am sharing.

 

[Cassandra]

So you deny that Jesus had no earthly father? You think he was a guy along the line who God had His eye on to became sin for us? Jesus emptied himself to be come man and God. He also raised Himself ( Destroy this temple, and in 3 days I will raise it up.)
He is the I am --not some Kenneth Copeland type character He had to wait for.
I dont see the Bible supporting this--I see a mans thoughts. You use Ellen White but where does she say what you say? She says Jesus is God and that He emptied Himself from divine attributes. And this "Son of Mary" Was he resurrected to Heaven and now sits on the right hand of the Father? Where is Christs throne?


What function does the Holy Spirit play?
Gonna pray for you.

 

[Le Roy]

Hello Cassandra, there were a few questions in my last post to you that you have not answered and I feel that it would be conducive to clearing up any confusion I have about your beliefs and any confusion you have about mine. I want to understand you, not have an argument. By comparing or labeling my thoughts as Gnostic etc, or comparing them to Kenneth Coplands beliefs, it might give you confidence in discounting them, but not productive. It seems that placing my views in a box with these categories is quite restrictive to any beneficial exchange of thought.
Perhaps you have not read through the whole thread as it has gotten a bit long, for some of your questions have already been delt with.

You use Ellen White but where does she say what you say?

"Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person—the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible." LHU 76

This quote clearly speaks of two distinct beings, one is human and subject to death. The other divine, eternal and not subject to death. Let me know what you think.

I realize that I have a tendency to write extensively and it may be a bit much for some to deal with so I will stop there and allow you to share your thoughts.

 

[Chief]

I did a bit of reading, and this is what I have found so far.

Christ’s Incarnation is central to Christian faith. He embraced humanity’s weaknesses to redeem us, yet remained sinless. This mystery invites reverent study, deepening our awe for His love and sacrifice. As Francis Nichol notes, Christ’s victory over temptation—despite a weakened human frame—demonstrates His power to save (Answers to Objections, pp. 392-393).

This quote clearly speaks of two distinct beings, one is human and subject to death. The other divine, eternal and not subject to death. Let me know what you think.

The apostle Paul declares, "Great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh" (1 Tim. 3:16). The Son of God, eternal and the Creator, became a human, possessing a dual nature—both human and divine—beyond our understanding. The early church addressed this at the Council of Chalcedon in 451, affirming that Christ was “truly God and truly man” with two distinct natures in one person, a view accepted by most Christians, including Adventists. Adventists agree with this because it aligns with biblical teachings, acknowledging Christ as fully divine and human but not two separate persons. The union of these natures implies two wills, allowing for the possibility of temptation without compromising divine omniscience. While distinct, both natures experienced each other's characteristics, such as thirst or the power to heal, making this union one of the universe’s great mysteries.

This mystery is unfathomable, highlighting the contrast between Christ's divinity and His birth as a helpless infant. This union offers hope to humanity, reflecting God's glory through Christ. Human reasoning cannot solve the mystery of Christ's incarnation, but it is our duty to study this vital subject with humility and reverence, as it is key to our salvation. Christ's humanity binds us to God, and our approach to this study should be humble and prayerful, as the topic is inexhaustible, offering new insights continually.

The Pre-existence and Divinity of Christ​

Scripture reveals that Jesus existed with God before His birth. The Gospels and verses such as John 1:1-3; 17:5, Colossians 1:15-17
and Hebrews 1:1-3 affirm His eternal presence and divine nature. He was God and Creator, existing before all creation. This eternal existence is supported by Ellen G. White's writings, confirming Christ's oneness with God (Review and Herald, April 5, 1906; Desire of Ages, p. 530).

Christ's Voluntary Humiliation​

Despite being divine, Christ humbled Himself by becoming human and dying for humanity to grant us life (John 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8). Ellen G. White describes this humility as beyond comprehension. Christ took on human frailty, yet remained sinless, a fact highlighted by multiple biblical references to His holiness and lack of sin (Isaiah 53:3-4; Matthew 8:17). Though He bore humanity’s "deteriorated condition," He did not inherit sinful desires (Desire of Ages, p. 49; Signs of the Times, June 9, 1898).

Sinless Nature of Christ​

Though Christ bore human weaknesses, He was without sin, unlike Adam's descendants (The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p. 1128). He faced temptation, yet remained pure, reflecting His distinct nature (Luke 1:35; 1 Peter 1:19). Scriptural and inspired writings confirm His sinlessness and His unique role as the Saviour, highlighting that He did not possess sinful propensities, ensuring He could save humanity. Christ’s nature allowed Him to resist temptation, as He had no inherent sin yet faced trials as Adam did (Hebrews 4:15). His victory over temptation offers hope for our eternal life. Christ's free will meant He could have sinned, yet He chose righteousness, showing His separation from sinners and affirming His role as the pure Redeemer (John 14:30; 1 Corinthians 15:45-47).

The Incarnation binds humanity to God, offering salvation through Christ’s sinless life and sacrificial death. Ellen White calls it the "golden chain" of our hope, urging humble study (Youth’s Instructor, Oct. 13, 1898). While human philosophy cannot fully explain it, Scripture affirms Christ’s dual nature: fully divine, fully human, yet without sin (2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 7:26).

 

[Le Roy]

Christ’s victory over temptation—despite a weakened human frame—demonstrates His power to save (Answers to Objections, pp. 392-393).

"a weakened human frame" ?? When I have heard ministers quoting Ellen regarding Jesus being under the working of the great law of heredity... They say he felt hunger and he got tired. They carefully avoid speaking of any evil desires that his ancestors failed at, which he personally faced and overcame. Thus showing the way to overcome. If he did not face hatred, murder, sexual sin, etc then he could not be our savior.

She also says he had no propensity to sin. A propensity is that which comes from having a prior active experience with sin and therefore having a propensity to do it again. They speak only of 'the weakened frame'. However the very next words say, "What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. (this is not about a weakened frame) He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. DA 48.6
Just as each of us have to face and deal with the hereditary sins of our ancestors. That is why scripture states that sin is passed on to the third and fourth generation. God is looking for someone to say, "the buck stops here", and confront the evil and overcome it through the power of God's grace.

The apostle Paul declares, "Great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh" (1 Tim. 3:16). The Son of God, eternal and the Creator, became a human, possessing a dual nature—both human and divine—beyond our understanding. The early church addressed this at the Council of Chalcedon in 451, affirming that Christ was “truly God and truly man” with two distinct natures in one person, a view accepted by most Christians, including Adventists. Adventists agree with this because it aligns with biblical teachings, acknowledging Christ as fully divine and human but not two separate persons. The union of these natures implies two wills, allowing for the possibility of temptation without compromising divine omniscience. While distinct, both natures experienced each other's characteristics, such as thirst or the power to heal, making this union one of the universe’s great mysteries.

And yet Chief, Ellen writes of the son of Mary and the Son of God as two separate beings who were blended into one. This makes perfect sense because the human is a temple and the divine is a spirit who will dwell in that temple.
Marriage is filled with symbolism and is a great object lesson of redemption and the incarnation. When a husband and wife marry and have a child, their genetic material is blended into one new creature. The two have actually become ONE in that child. This gives the clearest explanation of the incarnation. God is our husband and we are his bride. We are consummated into His love and the two become one as in the prayer of John 17. Does this begin to open more light on the subject?
There is more to the 'mystery' than is stated above. Col.1:27 "...this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you,..." Is Christ in you, the same as Christ in Mary's son? If this is not so, how is it different?

Though He bore humanity’s "deteriorated condition," He did not inherit sinful desires (Desire of Ages, p. 49; Signs of the Times, June 9, 1898).​

I read the DA quote above and there is nothing about 'not inheriting sinful desires'. Do you think that the devil was restrained from pressing sexual desires upon him?

Sinless Nature of Christ​

Though Christ bore human weaknesses, He was without sin, unlike Adam's descendants (The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p. 1128). He faced temptation, yet remained pure, reflecting His distinct nature (Luke 1:35; 1 Peter 1:19). Scriptural and inspired writings confirm His sinlessness and His unique role as the Saviour, highlighting that He did not possess sinful propensities, ensuring He could save humanity. Christ’s nature allowed Him to resist temptation, as He had no inherent sin yet faced trials as Adam did (Hebrews 4:15). His victory over temptation offers hope for our eternal life. Christ's free will meant He could have sinned, yet He chose righteousness, showing His separation from sinners and affirming His role as the pure Redeemer (John 14:30; 1 Corinthians 15:45-47).

And this purity He offers to us. When we are born again from the dead we also have that divine nature that keeps us from sin. 1John 3:9 We partake of his divine nature and He partakes of our humanity.
Do you believe this?

The Incarnation binds humanity to God, offering salvation through Christ’s sinless life and sacrificial death. Ellen White calls it the "golden chain" of our hope, urging humble study (Youth’s Instructor, Oct. 13, 1898). While human philosophy cannot fully explain it, Scripture affirms Christ’s dual nature: fully divine, fully human, yet without sin (2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 7:26).

If God is dwelling in us, is it incarnation?

 

[Chief]

"a weakened human frame" ?? When I have heard ministers quoting Ellen regarding Jesus being under the working of the great law of heredity... They say he felt hunger and he got tired. They carefully avoid speaking of any evil desires that his ancestors failed at, which he personally faced and overcame. Thus showing the way to overcome. If he did not face hatred, murder, sexual sin, etc then he could not be our savior.

He felt hungry (when the devil came to tempt him after the fast), he felt tired (he retreated with his disciples to rest), he felt angry (he whipped money changers in the temple). These are human tendencies. I have read about angels worshipping God in heaven day and night. I have not read where they take a break to eat or sleep. Comparatively, I would say humans have a "weakened frame".

And yet Chief, Ellen writes of the son of Mary and the Son of God as two separate beings who were blended into one. This makes perfect sense because the human is a temple and the divine is a spirit who will dwell in that temple.

Ellen White does not say they are two separate beings. It is your interpretation that says they are two beings. Look at this

"Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person—the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible." LHU 76

These are two distinct NATURES, not beings.

I read the DA quote above and there is nothing about 'not inheriting sinful desires'. Do you think that the devil was restrained from pressing sexual desires upon him?

Did you also read the Signs of the Times article? In Luke 4:1-13, the devil tempts Jesus on multiple occasions, but He triumphs. If the devil had the audacity to tempt Jesus to worship him (essentially trying to usurp God's authority), do you think pressing sexual desires on Him would have been an issue?

And this purity He offers to us. When we are born again from the dead we also have that divine nature that keeps us from sin. 1John 3:9 We partake of his divine nature and He partakes of our humanity.
Do you believe this?

When we resurrect, we inherit incorruptibility (1 Corinthians 15:42-55).

If God is dwelling in us, is it incarnation?

No.

 

[Le Roy]

He felt hungry (when the devil came to tempt him after the fast), he felt tired (he retreated with his disciples to rest), he felt angry (he whipped money changers in the temple). These are human tendencies. I have read about angels worshipping God in heaven day and night. I have not read where they take a break to eat or sleep. Comparatively, I would say humans have a "weakened frame".

Hello Chief, I owe you an apology as I have not posted the quote in it's entirety.

"Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life." DA 48

This is referring to their failings in life, their history, not their weakened physical frame. Even though the specifics of their sins are not here listed, yet he had to in some form face Lot's history and overcome, David's history and overcome. He had to bear every sin and every discord and overcome it all. Ellen speaks of every disgusting evil that sin had brought was torture to his spirit.
As I read the two articles that you linked to in your post I was confronted with what she says that he did not have the propensities and passions of evil as we do when we are born. Those words of are causing me think and rethink. They seem to be a direct contradiction to the statement above about the law of heredity and the history of his ancestors as well as the statement below.

"Many claim that it was impossible for Christ to be overcome by temptation. Then He could not have been placed in Adam's position; He could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. If we have in any sense a more trying conflict than had Christ, then He would not be able to succor us. But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured." DA 117
Yes he gained the victory over what Adam failed at, but he would have to gain the victory over Lot's failure and David's failure to succor any and all of us. As I read these things it clearly opened my mind and heart to how specifically my redeemer is involved in my victory and salvation. Can you find agreement in His intimacy with your life?
Each of us bear the sins of our ancestors and must overcome to vindicate God. Every time our Redeemer brings us to a decisive moment regarding any specific sin, whether our own or our forefather's we are facing a cross. If we mortify the flesh then God is vindicated. We may by grace face and overcome any specific evil of our forefather's without ever yielding as Jesus did. Indulgence is not a requirement in the process of sanctification.

Ellen White does not say they are two separate beings. It is your interpretation that says they are two beings. Look at this

These are two distinct NATURES, not beings.

But Chief, There are two beings mentioned in the quote. You cannot divorce their natures from their persons. Who's distinct natures are these? Distinctly Mary's son's nature, and God's Son's nature. These are two distinct beings. And one of them destroyed his fallen nature on the cross. Mary was not weeping over the death of her son's nature.
Mary's son's nature was representative of all fallen nature and all fallen nature has to die one way or another. But I don't think you can extract human nature from the human being and be honest in the reading of this statement by Ellen. Also, if we are partakers of the divine nature it should not be thought that that nature was something taking off a shelf and given to us but it comes in the presence of the sun in our life.
Do I believe Ellen understood fully what she wrote in this statement about the two natures, or saw this as I have seen it? No, The prophets wrote of things they did not understand the full implication of. As greater light is revealed the Reformation moves forward and new gems come out of hidden treasure.
You must remember that my sharing is not to overthrow your's or historic beliefs, but new truth does make old truth uncouth. I merely desire to point out the obvious, yet hidden in plain sight, fact of the depth of the Redeemers work in our salvation. Paul and John are very clear regarding the Son's habitation in our soul temples. In His high priestly work in our temple He opens the book of our remembrance and places His mediators finger on specific evils in our past and helps us deal with each in the full light of truth. This, I believe, is His personal work of the investigative judgment in the temples of each believer.

Did you also read the Signs of the Times article? In Luke 4:1-13, the devil tempts Jesus on multiple occasions, but He triumphs. If the devil had the audacity to tempt Jesus to worship him (essentially trying to usurp God's authority), do you think pressing sexual desires on Him would have been an issue?

I did go back and read the links which you posted, if that's what you're referring to. The second article stated what I consider to be an obvious error, which I once believed to be true, that the Creator of the universe somehow "could vanish from His vast universe and become a tiny cell in Mary's womb,"
That tiny physical cell of human flesh which had its origin in Mary's ovary and had the genetics that linked it to David, Abraham and Adam was fully and completely human. The Son of God is a divine spirit and as such He can inhabit the tiniest part of His creation or fill the whole universe.
Both articles seem to ignore the elephant in the room.
We are created for habitation, we are temples for God's indwelling. The Son in speaking to the church leaders said, "Destroy this temple and I will raise it up in 3 days." The Son was living in the human temple of Mary's son. It was the life of the Son which was unborrowed and underived that raised Mary's son from the dead. He was mortal but the Son is immortal and cannot die. There are things in scripture that demonstrate that the TWO were one.

When we resurrect, we inherit incorruptibility (1 Corinthians 15:42-55).

"incorruptibility" is not the same as being kept from falling Jude 24.
Do you believe 1John 3:9, that the born again believer Has the Son living within and directing its will and actions in continual obedience to all the will of the Father?

Le Roy said:
If God is dwelling in us, is it incarnation?

Chief replied, No. Can you harmonize that with what is written below?
The word incarnation means God in human flesh. Is the human nature of Chief changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No, the two natures are blended together in one man, Chief! "...we become partakers of the divine nature having escaped the corruption in the world." 2 Peter 1:4
Christ in you the hope of glory. God lives in you to both will and to do..." Paul said, I am crucified with Christ nevertheless I live but it is Christ who is doing the living. I don't understand why Christ in you is any different than Christ in Mary's son. (unless you are still alive to self)
Why this is not understood is a great mystery. This is what redemption requires. You will not enter heaven without Him as your life.
"The Lord’s body—God is seeking to make His church the continued incarnation of Christ." Letter 121, 1900 (August 13) PCL 23.2
This is so clear and such a wonderful help to know we are not left to figure it out on our own.