How does an Adventist get around Jesus statement?
rob
Active member
JW” Is God Always Superior to Jesus?
JESUS never claimed to be God. Everything he said about himself indicates that he did not consider himself equal to God in any way—not in power, not in knowledge, not in age.
In every period of his existence, whether in heaven or on earth, his speech and conduct reflect subordination to God. God is always the superior,Jesus the lesser one who was created by God.
rob
Active member
JW Bible : Then Jehovah made it rain sulfur and fire on Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah—it came from Jehovah, from the heavens.q
You goofed, you said all three were speaking for Him. That is false on your part, your own JW BIble says Jehovah on earth was using sulfur and fire. And Jehovah did this from heaven.
Thus the JW teach Jehovah can be on earth and in heaven in at the same time.
My point is Jehovah is on earth, according to their JW Bible translation.
How can that be, when Jehovah was sent by Jehovah?
You goofed, you said all three were speaking for Him. That is false on your part, your own JW BIble says Jehovah on earth was using sulfur and fire. And Jehovah did this from heaven.
Thus the JW teach Jehovah can be on earth and in heaven in at the same time.
My point is Jehovah is on earth, according to their JW Bible translation.
How can that be, when Jehovah was sent by Jehovah?
rob
Active member
Jehovah Witnesses claim (Quote)
- "Jehovah and his firstborn Son enjoyed close association for billions of years? - long before the starry heavens and the earth were created."(endquote).
rob
Active member
JW commentary on this verse:
Luke 1:35
35 In answer the angel said to her: “Holy spirit will come upon you,a and power of the Most High will overshadow you. And for that reason the one who is born will be called holy,b God’s Son.c
Notice “The” is missing
Rob will translate the JW verse according to JW understanding: -
"The force of Jehovah will come upon you and the power of Jehovah will overshadow you."
How can you make a shadow from ONE object?
You can't, so the JW is seriously wrong.
You require light source and a blocking of the light to make a shadow, hence a minimum of two Divine beings.
The life force spirit thing from Jehovah is wrong. Hence why they do not use "The" the definite article.
Luke 1:35
35 In answer the angel said to her: “Holy spirit will come upon you,a and power of the Most High will overshadow you. And for that reason the one who is born will be called holy,b God’s Son.c
Notice “The” is missing
Rob will translate the JW verse according to JW understanding: -
"The force of Jehovah will come upon you and the power of Jehovah will overshadow you."
How can you make a shadow from ONE object?
You can't, so the JW is seriously wrong.
You require light source and a blocking of the light to make a shadow, hence a minimum of two Divine beings.
The life force spirit thing from Jehovah is wrong. Hence why they do not use "The" the definite article.
rob
Active member
I am so glad to hear that. You make my day my JW friend. Just shows you do not read all the poetry in the Bible doesn't it?
I am sorry to nit pick at the JW Bible, because unless I do , you see the translation as true, when it is false.
And you just laugh and mock
How about answering my questions and proving me wrong?
Luke 1:35
Answer that question of mine. Shadows require two objects. Light Source and block Light source
So your Jehovah life force cannot work, hence Jehovah on His own cannot make shadows.
But ELOAH and SHADDAY can. If they are two heavenly parents.
Laugh some more, and consider the Hebrew words.
The word "born" also require two parents. Again one Jehovah can't do born?
I will research into how Jehovah created His Son?
How does that make the Son different to an Angel?
This superior / inferior thing is wrong I feel.
Shalom
rob
Active member
JW speak of a "spirit Son" becoming "Jesus" a "spirit Son" clad in human flesh?
That is my understanding of the JW?
My question to you the JW, is how can you create a "spirit Son"
what does "spirit" mean?
Like angels are "spirit creatures"
Are we talking of matter or some other substance but not of matter?
For example was is energy and matter? Are they the same or different? E= Mc2
so of relates them as the same idea? What do you say?
How can you create a "spirit son" from what substance is it made? It cannot be of matter
so what does the term mean?
rob
Active member
JW quoted "
God’s Firstborn
The Bible indicates that there was a time when God was alone. In his love he decided to share the gift of life by becoming a father—but not in the human sense. Rather, Jehovah used his unfathomable creative power to form a living, intelligent spirit person—“the beginning of the creation by God,” whom we now know as Jesus Christ. (Revelation 3:14; Proverbs 8:22) Because Jesus was directly created by God when God was all alone, Jesus is rightly called the “only-begotten son” and “the firstborn of all creation.”—John 1:14; Colossians 1:15.
Clearly, then, as the very first of God’s creations, Jesus could not be the Creator, “the only God.” (1 Timothy 1:17) On the other hand, God granted his Son many privileges. For example, through Jesus, God created “all other things,” including even the angels. These angels are referred to as “sons of God”—Jehovah being their Life-Giver as well.—Colossians 1:16; Job 1:6; 38:7.
A few things here for my JW friend to discuss.
If GOD is all alone and later decided to share the gift of life... than GOD is not all knowing is HE?
Nor is GOD love, GOD only later comes to share love, but is NOT love.
So there are wrong things in these sentences. Nor is GOD truly infinite and infinite in all things, if He was all alone but later decided NOT to be all alone. So the JW GOD is not infinite.
And the JW makes a wrong assumption that love is only Provider and Collector, but not responder love.
If the angels are "sons of God" by creation, how did the SON come to be from Jehovah, not to be a Son of GOD as well included among angels, but only as Jehovah's Son. Something missing in this discussion?
It only makes sense that INFINITY made all things manifest immediately upon its INFINITY existence as an uncaused cause.
Hence according to Occam’s Razor, INFINITE set made INFINITY as THREE functions of LOVE, the Provider, the Responder and the Collector. This is ONE being expressed as three persons, a divine family - that is not of matter, time or space. Hence according to Occam’s Razor, each personality of love needs ONE person, and the Divine Family become ONE Being of such persons of love. Therefore no member of Elohiym family was created, they all existed together from eternity.
JW speak of superior and inferior, does such a classification exist?
Yes, sort of. The Provider Most High is the only provider we know in the Bible.
A collector can provide but only through faith, via the provider and responder, thus creative acts is a group co-operation.
Why my JW friend does not like the word "group" I do not know, when Jehovah and a Son is a group.
The responder only responds to the Provider and thus completes the love actions.
So in this sense the Most High provider is superior in rank, but the love that flows require both providing and responding to function. Something my JW friend will not understand.
Shalom
God’s Firstborn
The Bible indicates that there was a time when God was alone. In his love he decided to share the gift of life by becoming a father—but not in the human sense. Rather, Jehovah used his unfathomable creative power to form a living, intelligent spirit person—“the beginning of the creation by God,” whom we now know as Jesus Christ. (Revelation 3:14; Proverbs 8:22) Because Jesus was directly created by God when God was all alone, Jesus is rightly called the “only-begotten son” and “the firstborn of all creation.”—John 1:14; Colossians 1:15.
Clearly, then, as the very first of God’s creations, Jesus could not be the Creator, “the only God.” (1 Timothy 1:17) On the other hand, God granted his Son many privileges. For example, through Jesus, God created “all other things,” including even the angels. These angels are referred to as “sons of God”—Jehovah being their Life-Giver as well.—Colossians 1:16; Job 1:6; 38:7.
A few things here for my JW friend to discuss.
If GOD is all alone and later decided to share the gift of life... than GOD is not all knowing is HE?
Nor is GOD love, GOD only later comes to share love, but is NOT love.
So there are wrong things in these sentences. Nor is GOD truly infinite and infinite in all things, if He was all alone but later decided NOT to be all alone. So the JW GOD is not infinite.
And the JW makes a wrong assumption that love is only Provider and Collector, but not responder love.
If the angels are "sons of God" by creation, how did the SON come to be from Jehovah, not to be a Son of GOD as well included among angels, but only as Jehovah's Son. Something missing in this discussion?
It only makes sense that INFINITY made all things manifest immediately upon its INFINITY existence as an uncaused cause.
Hence according to Occam’s Razor, INFINITE set made INFINITY as THREE functions of LOVE, the Provider, the Responder and the Collector. This is ONE being expressed as three persons, a divine family - that is not of matter, time or space. Hence according to Occam’s Razor, each personality of love needs ONE person, and the Divine Family become ONE Being of such persons of love. Therefore no member of Elohiym family was created, they all existed together from eternity.
JW speak of superior and inferior, does such a classification exist?
Yes, sort of. The Provider Most High is the only provider we know in the Bible.
A collector can provide but only through faith, via the provider and responder, thus creative acts is a group co-operation.
Why my JW friend does not like the word "group" I do not know, when Jehovah and a Son is a group.
The responder only responds to the Provider and thus completes the love actions.
So in this sense the Most High provider is superior in rank, but the love that flows require both providing and responding to function. Something my JW friend will not understand.
Shalom
rob
Active member
JW: "After preparing the earth for human habitation, God, apparently speaking to his firstborn Son, said: “Let us make man in our image.” (Genesis 1:26; Proverbs 8:22-31) Thus, Jehovah also created the first human son of God, Adam, through the spirit creature who would become Jesus.—Luke 3:38.
Does this spirit creature have a name before He was called Jesus?
Does this spirit creature have a name before He was called Jesus?
rob
Active member
Furthermore, since God, not any man, gave Jesus life, Jesus was born perfect, without sin. “What is born will be called holy, God’s Son,” said the angel Gabriel to Mary.—Luke 1:35
I see. So for those born as human in human nature we are born sinners.
But Jesus was born of GOD, like Adam was, without sin. So Jesus was not born under our nature?
Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Suggests to me Jesus was born of fallen humanity, but was sinless. How is this possible? Narazite vow
So the SDA and the JW differ on the borning process.
Under the Narazite vow, you don't not get to be born sinners.
I see. So for those born as human in human nature we are born sinners.
But Jesus was born of GOD, like Adam was, without sin. So Jesus was not born under our nature?
Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Suggests to me Jesus was born of fallen humanity, but was sinless. How is this possible? Narazite vow
So the SDA and the JW differ on the borning process.
Under the Narazite vow, you don't not get to be born sinners.
rob
Active member
JW" Why did God transfer his only-begotten Son from heaven to earth, there ultimately to die a cruel death? “In order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)
Some commentary by the JW is brilliant. Here is one. They use faith, rather than believe, and the JW is absolutely correct.
What is faith though?
Some commentary by the JW is brilliant. Here is one. They use faith, rather than believe, and the JW is absolutely correct.
What is faith though?
rob
Active member
Following his death Jesus “was declared God’s Son” in a very special and powerful way, “by means of resurrection from the dead” back to life as a spirit Son of God. (Romans 1:4; 1 Peter 3:18)
I see the spirit Son returns to Jehovah after death of Jesus the human body.
We SDA differ on this.
Zec 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
In heaven we get to see the wounds in His hands.
I see the spirit Son returns to Jehovah after death of Jesus the human body.
We SDA differ on this.
Zec 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
In heaven we get to see the wounds in His hands.
rob
Active member
I AM sure you will agree that others are higher, or greater and stronger, than you and I. Who would you say is?— Jehovah God is. What about his Son, the Great Teacher? Is he higher than we are?— Of course, he is.
Jesus had lived with God in heaven. He was a spirit Son, or angel. Did God make other angels, or spirit sons?— Yes, he made many millions of them. These angels also are higher and more powerful than we are.—Psalm 104:4; Daniel 7:10.
How sad the "spirit Son" is just an angel?
The JW is wrong on this idea?
Why is one angel singled out as Jehovah's son, above other angels?
How is a created being even considered a angel as a son?
Like saying I create a robot who thinks and talks like so, is not my Son? hardly.
No wonder you want me to quite Hebrew
The Hebrew word for "son" is "BN"
Meaning the "home over the nations"
The important letter here is "home" a created thing is not "home" it is a thing, but not of you
The SON means the "home of you continues"
We clone ourselves to continue ourselves and escape death.
But this doesn't work as our memories are recorded only in us as DNA memories
You cannot clone DNA memories (at least not yet)
So making a creature kind like cherubs is hardly the home continuing.
Only Jehovah can continue, if He is more than one.
So I see my JW friend is right, Jehovah is not a group.
The spirit Son is just an cherub, not Jehovah son.
It could be one of billions of cherub, why just one, the one and only angel?
Something wrong here?
Ge 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac,
Jeff Benner sees this error in Hebrew, a letter mistake wrong word
Ge 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine beloved son Isaac,
Now does the word yachiyd get used?
Ps 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog
Here in this verse the "one and only" is used to refer to the "spirit Son dressed in a human Jesus"
SO if this "one and only" only used for Jesus the human angel form?
Pr 4:3 For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother.
Is this a simile of the Spirit Son as a one and only?
Jer 6:26 O daughter of my people, gird thee with sackcloth, and wallow thyself in ashes: make thee mourning, as for an only son, most bitter lamentation: for the spoiler shall suddenly come upon us.
There is a strong case that the "one and only son" is a Bible idea, but this does not fit with the JW idea
of Jehovah creating among billions of angels a "one and only Spirit Son who is a cherub"
Something is wrong here.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Here is the best case, they mourn on the "one and only Son"
How is this possible is billions of cherubs exist, but one became Jehovah's one and only spirit son?
Something is wrong here.
Jesus had lived with God in heaven. He was a spirit Son, or angel. Did God make other angels, or spirit sons?— Yes, he made many millions of them. These angels also are higher and more powerful than we are.—Psalm 104:4; Daniel 7:10.
How sad the "spirit Son" is just an angel?
The JW is wrong on this idea?
Why is one angel singled out as Jehovah's son, above other angels?
How is a created being even considered a angel as a son?
Like saying I create a robot who thinks and talks like so, is not my Son? hardly.
No wonder you want me to quite Hebrew
The Hebrew word for "son" is "BN"
Meaning the "home over the nations"
The important letter here is "home" a created thing is not "home" it is a thing, but not of you
The SON means the "home of you continues"
We clone ourselves to continue ourselves and escape death.
But this doesn't work as our memories are recorded only in us as DNA memories
You cannot clone DNA memories (at least not yet)
So making a creature kind like cherubs is hardly the home continuing.
Only Jehovah can continue, if He is more than one.
So I see my JW friend is right, Jehovah is not a group.
The spirit Son is just an cherub, not Jehovah son.
It could be one of billions of cherub, why just one, the one and only angel?
Something wrong here?
Ge 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac,
Jeff Benner sees this error in Hebrew, a letter mistake wrong word
Ge 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine beloved son Isaac,
Now does the word yachiyd get used?
Ps 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog
Here in this verse the "one and only" is used to refer to the "spirit Son dressed in a human Jesus"
SO if this "one and only" only used for Jesus the human angel form?
Pr 4:3 For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother.
Is this a simile of the Spirit Son as a one and only?
Jer 6:26 O daughter of my people, gird thee with sackcloth, and wallow thyself in ashes: make thee mourning, as for an only son, most bitter lamentation: for the spoiler shall suddenly come upon us.
There is a strong case that the "one and only son" is a Bible idea, but this does not fit with the JW idea
of Jehovah creating among billions of angels a "one and only Spirit Son who is a cherub"
Something is wrong here.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Here is the best case, they mourn on the "one and only Son"
How is this possible is billions of cherubs exist, but one became Jehovah's one and only spirit son?
Something is wrong here.
rob
Active member
Seems to me the JW consider the "spirit son" just one of billions of angels.
So why single out one among billions of angels as a spirit son, when any of the angels (billions) are also Jehovahs spirit son?
Why ask an angel to speak for Jehovah? Why can't Jehovah speak for Himself?
The one angel chosen among billions of angels cannot be "a one and only angel" can it ?
So this idea of the Father and His one and only angel called Jesus is a myth?
If could have been Gabriel as the "spirit Son" who died on the Cross for our sins?
Question: if an angel died on a cross for human sins, what on earth for?
How does an angel rise out of the second death and the first death after 3 days and nights?
What does Abram say of this?
Ge 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
(KJV)
Notice it says Elohiym will provide Himself a lamb, so this son comes from Elohiym, not for cherubs.
The Jews saw the forbidden act of child sacrifice
Le 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
Humans are created. Angels are created. "God will provide himself a lamb" Abram says.
A spirit son called Gabriel Angel or Jesus Angel will not do. It has to be like Jehovah. But this implies duality of power.
JW I quote "
So this angel is called Logos. A spirit son just as other cherub are also spirit sons of Jehovah.
So Jesus Angel is how the JW see the spirit son, just one angel among billions.
rob
Active member
No, you cannot create an angel one among billions and make this into your "spirit son" as you "one and only"So, was the one later named "Jesus" not a son, previously?
The name of this angel before being born in humanity was called Logus.
There is no evidence of God allowing a creature from one kind to sex or born itself into another creature kind.
JW teach the angels have sex with humans, Gen 6 but Lev 18 - 20 speak of this idea as an abomination
There is evidence a creature can possess another creature, is the fallen angel possesses a dragon in the Garden of Eden
But no evidence of a creature changing into another creature through a born process.
Jw teach the Logus Angel became a Jesus Human. When the human died, Jesus died and the Logus angel went back as the Logus Angel. This is a false teaching I feel
My understanding Jesus was Divine bu added humanity to his divinity. When he died, both humanity and divinity "died" in the grave, meaning he was separated from God. After the grave the same body with scars is in heaven as out High Priest.
There is a permanent body around Jesus who lives in heaven.
The OT speaks salvation and YASHA the one who saves, and in the NT the JW make Logus come and die and return as Logus, not Yasha, So the entire consistent rescuer is destroyed.
Sure you can say all angels are sons of God, yes just as humans are sons of God, but to choose one among a billion and say this is my "one and only Son" makes a mockery of the OT scriptures.
Shalom
theMadJW
Member
I received an ANSWER! "NO"!
When someone is called his "son'- he had a BEGINNING!
I'm sure he will have the same clergy goofiplantions for thus:
Col 1:15- He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.
Clergy goofiplantions for this is that it's only a title!
Buuuuuuuuut, it specifies he is called a part of creation!
When someone is called his "son'- he had a BEGINNING!
I'm sure he will have the same clergy goofiplantions for thus:
Col 1:15- He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.
Clergy goofiplantions for this is that it's only a title!
Buuuuuuuuut, it specifies he is called a part of creation!