Angel Michael
- Thread starter Chomsky
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Rob, I read what you said and again ask that you stay focused on the primary topic.
Daniel 2, 45 claims that the Great God of Heaven PROMISED and assured that the only outcome would be victory. There is literally over 150 additional texts that are just as explicit as Daniel 2, 45 which affirm the exact same thing. With "God" swearing repeatedly that there was zero possibility of failure why is it so important for you (and other Adventists) to so tenaciously make God out to be a liar so that Ellen White can be true???
At this point I'm well aware you are not a Trinitarian, I get this and I'm not going to rebuke you for your beliefs on this. I'm only interested at this point of our conversation in understanding why you (& other Adventists) have zero problems allowing Ellen White to usurp God Almighty. It's really simple Rob. God said failure was not possible and Ellen comes along in the 19th century and gloats failure was very possible and that heaven itself was in peril while creature-christ was on probation. Why is that. Please stay focused.
Daniel 2, 45 claims that the Great God of Heaven PROMISED and assured that the only outcome would be victory. There is literally over 150 additional texts that are just as explicit as Daniel 2, 45 which affirm the exact same thing. With "God" swearing repeatedly that there was zero possibility of failure why is it so important for you (and other Adventists) to so tenaciously make God out to be a liar so that Ellen White can be true???
At this point I'm well aware you are not a Trinitarian, I get this and I'm not going to rebuke you for your beliefs on this. I'm only interested at this point of our conversation in understanding why you (& other Adventists) have zero problems allowing Ellen White to usurp God Almighty. It's really simple Rob. God said failure was not possible and Ellen comes along in the 19th century and gloats failure was very possible and that heaven itself was in peril while creature-christ was on probation. Why is that. Please stay focused.
rob
Active member
Greetings Grunion
You said "Rob, I read what you said and again ask that you stay focused on the primary topic.
I am on the primary focus, but Catholics like yourself, have different word meanings of Hebrew words.
How do I know you read my discussion if you do not critically discuss my points I raised?
And since you didn't raise anything - where do we go from here?
You said: "why you (& other Adventists) have zero problems allowing Ellen White to usurp God Almighty.
We don't usurp God's authority or God's ability to make prophecy with 100% accuracy.
We see Jesus doing faith in His Father as a human doing faith, so He leaves us an example how to do faith and thus live a sinless life. Mrs White is touching on the humanity of Christ - that he could have sinned, just as humans do, but chose not to - She is not touching on His deity - He could not use his own deity - that would be a sin - He always used His Father's deity though faith.
Does this make sense to you? Try talking to me why it doesn't make sense to you?
If you read my posts, great . Do you agree a Christian can live a sinless life? Like Jesus did? Through faith?
We SDA people are not talking about the deity of Christ, but the humanity of Christ. Can't you see the difference. Jesus was both, 100% deity and 100% human.
Jesus showed us how to live a sinless life, and not break faith. To us SDA this us an amazing example for us.
Do you understand what we are saying? Apparently not because you say nothing?
You say : "that heaven itself was in peril while creature-christ was on probation.
The Father knows the future, so as you say Scripture tells us Jesus mission would be a success before He did anything in human form, so does this take away the human fragility of faith - or even the Divine risk of faith with a Devil in His World?
This is a question to you - so please answer it and let's get into primary topic.
Why did Jesus come to earth in the first place Grunion? Also about your primary topic, so please answer.
Didn't He come primarily, to show humans as a human Himself, how to live a life without sinning - entirely as a human? After all no human seems able to achieve this, except a few, like Elijah, Enoch whom God took as examples of humans living sinlessly by faith. Sure I get He died to pay for sin-offering and other problems we are born with, but the most important mission is to show us how to live a sinless life. I do not read this in Catholic literature? There seems a problem with understanding faith?
Do you support the idea that the Father and the Son and the Holy support each other by faith? Please answer the question as it directly relates to your primary topic.
The ten commandments are faith principles and as eternal as God the Father is eternal and the angels and humans live a sinless life through these faith principles of love. This also means the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit also live by these faith principles in the moral law - these principles are eternal and cannot be changed. Do you agree to this idea? Please answer as this also directly affects your primary topic.
So when Mrs White is speaking of faith demonstrated by our Divine and Deity Saviour, she is referring to His humanity showing us how to live by faith. He used nothing we cannot use. He used free will and prayed to His Father. And like a human He got tired and slept, and took rests. He was also tempted to break faith by the Devil. That verse Catholics twist this to mean His humanity had an advantage over the Devil, that Jesus used his own deity to over come temptation. That would not be an example of faith to us. Instead Jesus used His Father's deity through faith, the same process any sinning human can use to become sinless.
Now you have to discuss my discussion so I know what your agreeing to or not. All these questions DIRECTLY impact your primary topic.
Shalom
You said "Rob, I read what you said and again ask that you stay focused on the primary topic.
I am on the primary focus, but Catholics like yourself, have different word meanings of Hebrew words.
How do I know you read my discussion if you do not critically discuss my points I raised?
And since you didn't raise anything - where do we go from here?
You said: "why you (& other Adventists) have zero problems allowing Ellen White to usurp God Almighty.
We don't usurp God's authority or God's ability to make prophecy with 100% accuracy.
We see Jesus doing faith in His Father as a human doing faith, so He leaves us an example how to do faith and thus live a sinless life. Mrs White is touching on the humanity of Christ - that he could have sinned, just as humans do, but chose not to - She is not touching on His deity - He could not use his own deity - that would be a sin - He always used His Father's deity though faith.
Does this make sense to you? Try talking to me why it doesn't make sense to you?
If you read my posts, great . Do you agree a Christian can live a sinless life? Like Jesus did? Through faith?
We SDA people are not talking about the deity of Christ, but the humanity of Christ. Can't you see the difference. Jesus was both, 100% deity and 100% human.
Jesus showed us how to live a sinless life, and not break faith. To us SDA this us an amazing example for us.
Do you understand what we are saying? Apparently not because you say nothing?
You say : "that heaven itself was in peril while creature-christ was on probation.
The Father knows the future, so as you say Scripture tells us Jesus mission would be a success before He did anything in human form, so does this take away the human fragility of faith - or even the Divine risk of faith with a Devil in His World?
This is a question to you - so please answer it and let's get into primary topic.
Why did Jesus come to earth in the first place Grunion? Also about your primary topic, so please answer.
Didn't He come primarily, to show humans as a human Himself, how to live a life without sinning - entirely as a human? After all no human seems able to achieve this, except a few, like Elijah, Enoch whom God took as examples of humans living sinlessly by faith. Sure I get He died to pay for sin-offering and other problems we are born with, but the most important mission is to show us how to live a sinless life. I do not read this in Catholic literature? There seems a problem with understanding faith?
Do you support the idea that the Father and the Son and the Holy support each other by faith? Please answer the question as it directly relates to your primary topic.
The ten commandments are faith principles and as eternal as God the Father is eternal and the angels and humans live a sinless life through these faith principles of love. This also means the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit also live by these faith principles in the moral law - these principles are eternal and cannot be changed. Do you agree to this idea? Please answer as this also directly affects your primary topic.
So when Mrs White is speaking of faith demonstrated by our Divine and Deity Saviour, she is referring to His humanity showing us how to live by faith. He used nothing we cannot use. He used free will and prayed to His Father. And like a human He got tired and slept, and took rests. He was also tempted to break faith by the Devil. That verse Catholics twist this to mean His humanity had an advantage over the Devil, that Jesus used his own deity to over come temptation. That would not be an example of faith to us. Instead Jesus used His Father's deity through faith, the same process any sinning human can use to become sinless.
Now you have to discuss my discussion so I know what your agreeing to or not. All these questions DIRECTLY impact your primary topic.
Shalom
No Rob, the founding SDA's had no concept of Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic word meanings - to a large degree this is what caused you to end up with the type of theology you have.
I have Rob, you just don't like the answers. It's a very simple straightforward solution - you provide me why and how Ellen White outranks Almighty God. I'm still waiting for you or any other Adventist to answer that question.
You absolutely do Rob, God has told us 100 ways from Sunday that was zero possibility of Salvation for mankind failing yet Ellen White militantly taught that there WAS a possibility of Christ failing & that this risked heaven itself. You have REPEATEDLY refused to directly address this Rob - why is that?
The hypothetical you propose is ONLY possible if you have a different Father, a different Son and a different Devil than what the Bible illustrates. So my answer is YES, what you say would be possible under Ellen White's shake-n-bake Jesus and shake-n-bake Flesh Father. This is why all the Reformers categorically reject the Jehovah's Witness position - and make no mistake Rob - you hold the same position.
To Destroy the works of the devil - to save us.
"Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3, 8
No Rob, God did not became man to show us how to become God. I realize that Ellen White had such a view of herself that she believed that Flesh Father sent her like Flesh Father sent Christ. In the SDA rubric creature-christ was sent to vindicate the law of god after lucifer put flesh father into a legal pickle. According to Ellen Lucifer charged God with being unfair - this message spread throughout the SDA multiverse where aliens on other planets started to wonder if God was fair or not. creature-christ eventually came up with a crack pot idea on how to fix everything and eventually flesh father bought off on the plan. This whole thing Rob is fiction from Ellen White's own mind - sure she borrowed much of it from another famous anti-Trinitarian but we can talk about that in another thread.
Not in the manner that SDA's think. SDA's believe in multiple different BEINGS (like a family, or military unit) and that one or more beings could cease to exist still leaving 1 or 2 of the other beings. I believe God is ONE BEING, ONE SINGLE SUBSTANCE and so where ever the Son is the Father and Holy Spirit are also and any other combination.
There is no such thing as a "ten commandment law", the law is every page of the 1st 5 Books of the Bible. Within the law there are both moral and ceremonial commandments. Your concept is a distinctive SDA concept - its alien to Scripture. Even IF there was such a thing as a 10 commandment law how would this justify your claiming that something God said was impossible could be possible?
Jesus was like us in all ways EXCEPT for sin Rob. Again, you don't need to demonstrate your anti-Trinitarianism to me here - you now need to share with me how it is that Ellen White is correct in correcting God.