Angel Michael
- Thread starter Chomsky
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Rob, I read what you said and again ask that you stay focused on the primary topic.
Daniel 2, 45 claims that the Great God of Heaven PROMISED and assured that the only outcome would be victory. There is literally over 150 additional texts that are just as explicit as Daniel 2, 45 which affirm the exact same thing. With "God" swearing repeatedly that there was zero possibility of failure why is it so important for you (and other Adventists) to so tenaciously make God out to be a liar so that Ellen White can be true???
At this point I'm well aware you are not a Trinitarian, I get this and I'm not going to rebuke you for your beliefs on this. I'm only interested at this point of our conversation in understanding why you (& other Adventists) have zero problems allowing Ellen White to usurp God Almighty. It's really simple Rob. God said failure was not possible and Ellen comes along in the 19th century and gloats failure was very possible and that heaven itself was in peril while creature-christ was on probation. Why is that. Please stay focused.
Daniel 2, 45 claims that the Great God of Heaven PROMISED and assured that the only outcome would be victory. There is literally over 150 additional texts that are just as explicit as Daniel 2, 45 which affirm the exact same thing. With "God" swearing repeatedly that there was zero possibility of failure why is it so important for you (and other Adventists) to so tenaciously make God out to be a liar so that Ellen White can be true???
At this point I'm well aware you are not a Trinitarian, I get this and I'm not going to rebuke you for your beliefs on this. I'm only interested at this point of our conversation in understanding why you (& other Adventists) have zero problems allowing Ellen White to usurp God Almighty. It's really simple Rob. God said failure was not possible and Ellen comes along in the 19th century and gloats failure was very possible and that heaven itself was in peril while creature-christ was on probation. Why is that. Please stay focused.
rob
Active member
Greetings Grunion
You said "Rob, I read what you said and again ask that you stay focused on the primary topic.
I am on the primary focus, but Catholics like yourself, have different word meanings of Hebrew words.
How do I know you read my discussion if you do not critically discuss my points I raised?
And since you didn't raise anything - where do we go from here?
You said: "why you (& other Adventists) have zero problems allowing Ellen White to usurp God Almighty.
We don't usurp God's authority or God's ability to make prophecy with 100% accuracy.
We see Jesus doing faith in His Father as a human doing faith, so He leaves us an example how to do faith and thus live a sinless life. Mrs White is touching on the humanity of Christ - that he could have sinned, just as humans do, but chose not to - She is not touching on His deity - He could not use his own deity - that would be a sin - He always used His Father's deity though faith.
Does this make sense to you? Try talking to me why it doesn't make sense to you?
If you read my posts, great . Do you agree a Christian can live a sinless life? Like Jesus did? Through faith?
We SDA people are not talking about the deity of Christ, but the humanity of Christ. Can't you see the difference. Jesus was both, 100% deity and 100% human.
Jesus showed us how to live a sinless life, and not break faith. To us SDA this us an amazing example for us.
Do you understand what we are saying? Apparently not because you say nothing?
You say : "that heaven itself was in peril while creature-christ was on probation.
The Father knows the future, so as you say Scripture tells us Jesus mission would be a success before He did anything in human form, so does this take away the human fragility of faith - or even the Divine risk of faith with a Devil in His World?
This is a question to you - so please answer it and let's get into primary topic.
Why did Jesus come to earth in the first place Grunion? Also about your primary topic, so please answer.
Didn't He come primarily, to show humans as a human Himself, how to live a life without sinning - entirely as a human? After all no human seems able to achieve this, except a few, like Elijah, Enoch whom God took as examples of humans living sinlessly by faith. Sure I get He died to pay for sin-offering and other problems we are born with, but the most important mission is to show us how to live a sinless life. I do not read this in Catholic literature? There seems a problem with understanding faith?
Do you support the idea that the Father and the Son and the Holy support each other by faith? Please answer the question as it directly relates to your primary topic.
The ten commandments are faith principles and as eternal as God the Father is eternal and the angels and humans live a sinless life through these faith principles of love. This also means the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit also live by these faith principles in the moral law - these principles are eternal and cannot be changed. Do you agree to this idea? Please answer as this also directly affects your primary topic.
So when Mrs White is speaking of faith demonstrated by our Divine and Deity Saviour, she is referring to His humanity showing us how to live by faith. He used nothing we cannot use. He used free will and prayed to His Father. And like a human He got tired and slept, and took rests. He was also tempted to break faith by the Devil. That verse Catholics twist this to mean His humanity had an advantage over the Devil, that Jesus used his own deity to over come temptation. That would not be an example of faith to us. Instead Jesus used His Father's deity through faith, the same process any sinning human can use to become sinless.
Now you have to discuss my discussion so I know what your agreeing to or not. All these questions DIRECTLY impact your primary topic.
Shalom
You said "Rob, I read what you said and again ask that you stay focused on the primary topic.
I am on the primary focus, but Catholics like yourself, have different word meanings of Hebrew words.
How do I know you read my discussion if you do not critically discuss my points I raised?
And since you didn't raise anything - where do we go from here?
You said: "why you (& other Adventists) have zero problems allowing Ellen White to usurp God Almighty.
We don't usurp God's authority or God's ability to make prophecy with 100% accuracy.
We see Jesus doing faith in His Father as a human doing faith, so He leaves us an example how to do faith and thus live a sinless life. Mrs White is touching on the humanity of Christ - that he could have sinned, just as humans do, but chose not to - She is not touching on His deity - He could not use his own deity - that would be a sin - He always used His Father's deity though faith.
Does this make sense to you? Try talking to me why it doesn't make sense to you?
If you read my posts, great . Do you agree a Christian can live a sinless life? Like Jesus did? Through faith?
We SDA people are not talking about the deity of Christ, but the humanity of Christ. Can't you see the difference. Jesus was both, 100% deity and 100% human.
Jesus showed us how to live a sinless life, and not break faith. To us SDA this us an amazing example for us.
Do you understand what we are saying? Apparently not because you say nothing?
You say : "that heaven itself was in peril while creature-christ was on probation.
The Father knows the future, so as you say Scripture tells us Jesus mission would be a success before He did anything in human form, so does this take away the human fragility of faith - or even the Divine risk of faith with a Devil in His World?
This is a question to you - so please answer it and let's get into primary topic.
Why did Jesus come to earth in the first place Grunion? Also about your primary topic, so please answer.
Didn't He come primarily, to show humans as a human Himself, how to live a life without sinning - entirely as a human? After all no human seems able to achieve this, except a few, like Elijah, Enoch whom God took as examples of humans living sinlessly by faith. Sure I get He died to pay for sin-offering and other problems we are born with, but the most important mission is to show us how to live a sinless life. I do not read this in Catholic literature? There seems a problem with understanding faith?
Do you support the idea that the Father and the Son and the Holy support each other by faith? Please answer the question as it directly relates to your primary topic.
The ten commandments are faith principles and as eternal as God the Father is eternal and the angels and humans live a sinless life through these faith principles of love. This also means the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit also live by these faith principles in the moral law - these principles are eternal and cannot be changed. Do you agree to this idea? Please answer as this also directly affects your primary topic.
So when Mrs White is speaking of faith demonstrated by our Divine and Deity Saviour, she is referring to His humanity showing us how to live by faith. He used nothing we cannot use. He used free will and prayed to His Father. And like a human He got tired and slept, and took rests. He was also tempted to break faith by the Devil. That verse Catholics twist this to mean His humanity had an advantage over the Devil, that Jesus used his own deity to over come temptation. That would not be an example of faith to us. Instead Jesus used His Father's deity through faith, the same process any sinning human can use to become sinless.
Now you have to discuss my discussion so I know what your agreeing to or not. All these questions DIRECTLY impact your primary topic.
Shalom
No Rob, the founding SDA's had no concept of Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic word meanings - to a large degree this is what caused you to end up with the type of theology you have.
I have Rob, you just don't like the answers. It's a very simple straightforward solution - you provide me why and how Ellen White outranks Almighty God. I'm still waiting for you or any other Adventist to answer that question.
You absolutely do Rob, God has told us 100 ways from Sunday that was zero possibility of Salvation for mankind failing yet Ellen White militantly taught that there WAS a possibility of Christ failing & that this risked heaven itself. You have REPEATEDLY refused to directly address this Rob - why is that?
The hypothetical you propose is ONLY possible if you have a different Father, a different Son and a different Devil than what the Bible illustrates. So my answer is YES, what you say would be possible under Ellen White's shake-n-bake Jesus and shake-n-bake Flesh Father. This is why all the Reformers categorically reject the Jehovah's Witness position - and make no mistake Rob - you hold the same position.
To Destroy the works of the devil - to save us.
"Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3, 8
No Rob, God did not became man to show us how to become God. I realize that Ellen White had such a view of herself that she believed that Flesh Father sent her like Flesh Father sent Christ. In the SDA rubric creature-christ was sent to vindicate the law of god after lucifer put flesh father into a legal pickle. According to Ellen Lucifer charged God with being unfair - this message spread throughout the SDA multiverse where aliens on other planets started to wonder if God was fair or not. creature-christ eventually came up with a crack pot idea on how to fix everything and eventually flesh father bought off on the plan. This whole thing Rob is fiction from Ellen White's own mind - sure she borrowed much of it from another famous anti-Trinitarian but we can talk about that in another thread.
Not in the manner that SDA's think. SDA's believe in multiple different BEINGS (like a family, or military unit) and that one or more beings could cease to exist still leaving 1 or 2 of the other beings. I believe God is ONE BEING, ONE SINGLE SUBSTANCE and so where ever the Son is the Father and Holy Spirit are also and any other combination.
There is no such thing as a "ten commandment law", the law is every page of the 1st 5 Books of the Bible. Within the law there are both moral and ceremonial commandments. Your concept is a distinctive SDA concept - its alien to Scripture. Even IF there was such a thing as a 10 commandment law how would this justify your claiming that something God said was impossible could be possible?
Jesus was like us in all ways EXCEPT for sin Rob. Again, you don't need to demonstrate your anti-Trinitarianism to me here - you now need to share with me how it is that Ellen White is correct in correcting God.
rob
Active member
Thank you for replying - your view as I guessed is completely, different to my view - that is OK - I am happy for you to retain your view, but now I will test your view against the Bible and it's logic -
There are many things Satan claims - He was once a devout practicing angel doing faith and living in Divine powers all the time, how else does a creature become divine? You think angels are inherently divine - that idea is wrong - their divinity is imputed to them by their constant faith living in Eloihym power. There is no other way for living.
Already we differ. So let me prove to you such living is only possible and based on the ten commandments of faith.
Ps 119:86 All thy commandments are faithful:
The ten commandments are faith principles.
Ps 119:142 ¶ Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Here the torah (law) is declared affirming faith (truth), emeth is a faith word in a family of faith words.
Ps 119:152 ¶ Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
Here the eternal principles of faith are embedded in the ten words for ever since time began. Such faith principles cannot be changed because they empower all things (including God) hence they are "owlam".
Now the devil hated the idea of doing faith all the time, He wanted to be truly independent with power. He could see deity was with power of deity and wondered could deity do things independently? This is the highest and truest sense of the origin of sin, although the Bible is silent about the origin of sin.
Technically creatures cannot achieve independent power because all things come from God.
So Lucifer asked the Most High if He, an angel, could be like the Most High - and the Father created his request allowing such dysfunction to become observable to other angels, until a war over words broke out.
The Devil is claiming you can be like God "knowing good and evil" , "independently" as God knows but refuses to do.
That is where this primary topic of yours comes from.
You said : "Jesus was like us in all ways EXCEPT for sin Rob.
That is fuzzy Grunion.
Humans have one nature that is corrupted by Adam's sin - a fallen nature. Jesus took up this fallen nature intentionally "born of woman, born under law" - ie the law's condemnation - to truly rescue those born under the law's condemnation.
Humans are creature without the ability to show independent powers - there is no such thing as self. Self is a term that means the Devil empowers in you a sense of independency from his powers by faith forced automatically upon you. God never forces his powers upon you and in you - you always have to ask for them by faith. So both elohiym powers are very different.
Jesus on the other hand had humanity and all that humanity is - helpless on it's own, powerless on it's own and entirely dependent upon God for power, living and doing - through faith AND Jesus had something else "deity". His own deity.
Human do not have "deity". Can Deity independently have power ? This is a hypothesis the Devil raised - is it true? Dunno. That is the primary question you raise.
And the deity Jesus had (we assume) can do things apart from the Father with His deity. If the Godhead supports each other by love and does things together as faith, the Devil wondered can Deity do things independently?
That is your primary topic right there.
That is why He asked Jesus "if you are the Son of Deity" turn these stones into bread. Show us independent deity.
The Son refused. He said we must live on the Word and the Word is biological and literal bread.
He wasn't as many do with poetry similes suggesting similes are fictitious. He spoke of the similes as real.
I have read of many living biologically perfectly on the Word, when the doctors checked them inside, said they should be dead already. But God loves people with that sort of faith.
So the primary topic question is "Can deity be independent?
My answer is no it can't. It has free will to be independent, but doesn't because do so would be breaking off supporting each other and no longer perfect love. That is why Ellen White raised the messages to us. It reveals a deep infinite sacrifice about how much love the Father and Son took to take on the Devil and his claims.
You are familiar with Job
Job 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:
Lucifer broke faith in the Father - the Hebrew word here is "aman" a faith word.
Your primary topic is here - but you don't realize
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
If God saves us, why does God allow the Devil to destroy and kill us? Job's children were killed by Satan.
If God hedges us, why does God sometimes not hedge us? (going against the torah isn't this?)
If God is the ultimate source of all power, why does some power flow to Satan to use as he wants in dysfunctional ways?
Notice the tree is called function and dysfunction - not dysfunction alone. Why? Because nothing bad exists outside of God's control - all things flow via the medium. Hence God is always in control.
So nothing is truly independent, but the "possibility to be independent" can be created by God by those who wish this - that is called sin. And this is what the Devil wanted -(so this proves the possibility to be independent exists, so the Devil thought?) He thought He could tempt Christ to forever fix the Devil's independency by making Christ with His deity becoming independent, joining Satan, but Jesus refused. That is my answering your primary question in a nutshell.
That is why I posted my two pennies long ago, I do not support the idea such a condition could exist. Nothing can be truly independent - not even deity, for doing so would cause an infinite implosion. Jesus as deity knew this, and being in love with His Father refused the Devil. Now Mrs White posting this message, brings to us a very deep understanding of the nature of sin. So thanks for your question and for your continued dialogue with me - I have learnt much.
Shalom
There are many things Satan claims - He was once a devout practicing angel doing faith and living in Divine powers all the time, how else does a creature become divine? You think angels are inherently divine - that idea is wrong - their divinity is imputed to them by their constant faith living in Eloihym power. There is no other way for living.
Already we differ. So let me prove to you such living is only possible and based on the ten commandments of faith.
Ps 119:86 All thy commandments are faithful:
The ten commandments are faith principles.
Ps 119:142 ¶ Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Here the torah (law) is declared affirming faith (truth), emeth is a faith word in a family of faith words.
Ps 119:152 ¶ Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
Here the eternal principles of faith are embedded in the ten words for ever since time began. Such faith principles cannot be changed because they empower all things (including God) hence they are "owlam".
Now the devil hated the idea of doing faith all the time, He wanted to be truly independent with power. He could see deity was with power of deity and wondered could deity do things independently? This is the highest and truest sense of the origin of sin, although the Bible is silent about the origin of sin.
Technically creatures cannot achieve independent power because all things come from God.
So Lucifer asked the Most High if He, an angel, could be like the Most High - and the Father created his request allowing such dysfunction to become observable to other angels, until a war over words broke out.
The Devil is claiming you can be like God "knowing good and evil" , "independently" as God knows but refuses to do.
That is where this primary topic of yours comes from.
You said : "Jesus was like us in all ways EXCEPT for sin Rob.
That is fuzzy Grunion.
Humans have one nature that is corrupted by Adam's sin - a fallen nature. Jesus took up this fallen nature intentionally "born of woman, born under law" - ie the law's condemnation - to truly rescue those born under the law's condemnation.
Humans are creature without the ability to show independent powers - there is no such thing as self. Self is a term that means the Devil empowers in you a sense of independency from his powers by faith forced automatically upon you. God never forces his powers upon you and in you - you always have to ask for them by faith. So both elohiym powers are very different.
Jesus on the other hand had humanity and all that humanity is - helpless on it's own, powerless on it's own and entirely dependent upon God for power, living and doing - through faith AND Jesus had something else "deity". His own deity.
Human do not have "deity". Can Deity independently have power ? This is a hypothesis the Devil raised - is it true? Dunno. That is the primary question you raise.
And the deity Jesus had (we assume) can do things apart from the Father with His deity. If the Godhead supports each other by love and does things together as faith, the Devil wondered can Deity do things independently?
That is your primary topic right there.
That is why He asked Jesus "if you are the Son of Deity" turn these stones into bread. Show us independent deity.
The Son refused. He said we must live on the Word and the Word is biological and literal bread.
He wasn't as many do with poetry similes suggesting similes are fictitious. He spoke of the similes as real.
I have read of many living biologically perfectly on the Word, when the doctors checked them inside, said they should be dead already. But God loves people with that sort of faith.
So the primary topic question is "Can deity be independent?
My answer is no it can't. It has free will to be independent, but doesn't because do so would be breaking off supporting each other and no longer perfect love. That is why Ellen White raised the messages to us. It reveals a deep infinite sacrifice about how much love the Father and Son took to take on the Devil and his claims.
You are familiar with Job
Job 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:
Lucifer broke faith in the Father - the Hebrew word here is "aman" a faith word.
Your primary topic is here - but you don't realize
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
If God saves us, why does God allow the Devil to destroy and kill us? Job's children were killed by Satan.
If God hedges us, why does God sometimes not hedge us? (going against the torah isn't this?)
If God is the ultimate source of all power, why does some power flow to Satan to use as he wants in dysfunctional ways?
Notice the tree is called function and dysfunction - not dysfunction alone. Why? Because nothing bad exists outside of God's control - all things flow via the medium. Hence God is always in control.
So nothing is truly independent, but the "possibility to be independent" can be created by God by those who wish this - that is called sin. And this is what the Devil wanted -(so this proves the possibility to be independent exists, so the Devil thought?) He thought He could tempt Christ to forever fix the Devil's independency by making Christ with His deity becoming independent, joining Satan, but Jesus refused. That is my answering your primary question in a nutshell.
That is why I posted my two pennies long ago, I do not support the idea such a condition could exist. Nothing can be truly independent - not even deity, for doing so would cause an infinite implosion. Jesus as deity knew this, and being in love with His Father refused the Devil. Now Mrs White posting this message, brings to us a very deep understanding of the nature of sin. So thanks for your question and for your continued dialogue with me - I have learnt much.
Shalom
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