The Trinity Controversy | Randy Skeete

OK if a angel came to die for human sins on earth? Why is this required?
How does the angel offer us His life for the human life exchange when the angels life is borrowed from Jehovah since the angel is a created creature? Does the JW answer this question?

The purpose of a sacrifice is to offer you life for His life. So where does the life of an angel come from to offer life to himself?
It can't. So the angel dies in the cross experience !

The JW say the spirit son returns back to Jehovah as before.

How is this any different to the sacrifice of a sinless animal?

It's not.

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

A goat or lamb cannot offer us life, neither can the blood of an angel?

So your JW jesus angel blood sacrifice means nothing. It has no life.

One has to offer divine blood "life" - life only comes from Jehovah

an angel is not immortal - it has no life - it only has borrowed life

Shalom
 
I was talking about God's holy (set aside) spirit (breath, wind).
Yes JW only see breath as a force from Jehovah, not a personal being like the SDA does.

If the breath is the Most High force, why don't we die immediately from the Most High power living in sinners?
How does the power from the Most HIgh get diminished enough to sustain a sinner?
The JW has no idea? You require a medium function - the HS.
 
Nice reply JW. So this "spirit son" of Jehovah is a trick upon people

In John 17

Joh 17:1 ¶ These words spake Jesus Angel, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father Jehovah, the hour is come; glorify thy Son as your Jesus Angel, that thy Son Jesus angel also may glorify thee:

And in Ps 110:1

Ps 110:1 ¶ The LORD said unto my "Logus Angel" Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Funny the Bible Hebrew does not use these terms

Heb 1:4 ¶ Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Your JW BIble lists these verses OK,

So Jesus is better than angels?
Which angel does Jehovah make as His SON?

He doesn't.

So your whole Logus Angel Jesus Angel thing is bogus . Sorry

It's easy to prove in Hebrew, but you want me to quit using hebrew.

Shalom

Nice sarcasm! I MEAN it!
Once again you are letting your dogma get in the way!
"as he hath by inheritance OBTAINED a more excellent name than they"
He didn't have one before.
 
Nice sarcasm! I MEAN it!
Once again you are letting your dogma get in the way!
"as he hath by inheritance OBTAINED a more excellent name than they"
He didn't have one before.
My friend I never write sarcasm. Hebrew words have very specific but broad meanings. Greek is no different.
The word "pater" and the word "huios" mean a real Father and His Son.
And angel can never be a "son"

Now I get the term often used "sons of God" . but this is term for ??
You may are right, how would we know the term is meant biologically by blood or adopted into a family by faith?

Heb 1:4 ¶ Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

This passage you twist is saying to me the Christ is not an angel, and is better than angels. It uses the term Father and Son in their literal biological sense, not an adopted sense, is my two pennies.

How do you get a "one and only" from a billion possible angels God could have chosen. Your logic is bad.

This passage helps me but does not help you. Christ was not an angel.
 
My friend I never write sarcasm. Hebrew words have very specific but broad meanings. Greek is no different.
The word "pater" and the word "huios" mean a real Father and His Son.
And angel can never be a "son"

Now I get the term often used "sons of God" . but this is term for ??
You may are right, how would we know the term is meant biologically by blood or adopted into a family by faith?

Heb 1:4 ¶ Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

This passage you twist is saying to me the Christ is not an angel, and is better than angels. It uses the term Father and Son in their literal biological sense, not an adopted sense, is my two pennies.

How do you get a "one and only" from a billion possible angels God could have chosen. Your logic is bad.

This passage helps me but does not help you. Christ was not an angel.

I can not help you if you interpret the scriptures with Church Spin.
 
I can not help you if you interpret the scriptures with Church Spin.
What? What about you? The only religion that supports the idea of God choosing an angel for a son.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Strange names for a mere angel to be called don't you think?
 
"as he hath by inheritance OBTAINED a more excellent name than they"

He didn't have one before.
SO God chooses one angel among a billion angels to have a better inheritance than all other billion angels?

How does this angel become a one and only angel?
 
OK if a angel came to die for human sins on earth? Why is this required?
How does the angel offer us His life for the human life exchange when the angels life is borrowed from Jehovah since the angel is a created creature? Does the JW answer this question?

The purpose of a sacrifice is to offer you life for His life. So where does the life of an angel come from to offer life to himself?
It can't. So the angel dies in the cross experience !

The JW say the spirit son returns back to Jehovah as before.

How is this any different to the sacrifice of a sinless animal?

It's not.

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

A goat or lamb cannot offer us life, neither can the blood of an angel?

So your JW jesus angel blood sacrifice means nothing. It has no life.

One has to offer divine blood "life" - life only comes from Jehovah

an angel is not immortal - it has no life - it only has borrowed life

Shalom

You say GOD did!
 
OK if a angel came to die for human sins on earth? Why is this required?
How does the angel offer us His life for the human life exchange when the angels life is borrowed from Jehovah since the angel is a created creature? Does the JW answer this question?

The purpose of a sacrifice is to offer you life for His life. So where does the life of an angel come from to offer life to himself?
It can't. So the angel dies in the cross experience !

The JW say the spirit son returns back to Jehovah as before.

How is this any different to the sacrifice of a sinless animal?

It's not.

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

A goat or lamb cannot offer us life, neither can the blood of an angel?

So your JW jesus angel blood sacrifice means nothing. It has no life.

One has to offer divine blood "life" - life only comes from Jehovah

an angel is not immortal - it has no life - it only has borrowed life

Shalom
Maybe the reason why you laugh is because you can't answer my questions?
 
You say GOD did!
Yes correct because only God has life, all other creatures have only borrowed life

Here is the Verse

Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

Life for life, that is your life is required to be given for all eternity. so only infinite God could pay this price

An angel could give his life, but could not come back to life, because his life is only borrowed from God

Hope this makes sense?
 
Greetings gentlemen, Happy Sabbath

I would like a SDA person to answer this question.

Why do we use the word "Trinity" in our creed, when it is a invented word and comes with baggage, ie : the precepts and traditions of men?

And just what Hebrew word do you make equivalent to "trinity" too?

Most people I talk to, ie SDA people, do not like me using Hebrew words, yet somehow we are happy to make a creed, one Hebrew word meaning into a English word meaning as a Creed. This is very dangerous indeed and suggests we know all the translation meanings of the Bible surrounding that word.

Let me give you an example:

EGW: "He [Jesus] pointed His hearers to the Ruler of the universe, under the new name, “Our Father.” He would have them understand how tenderly the heart of God yearned over them. He teaches that God cares for every lost soul; that “like as a father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear Him.” Psalm 103:13. Such a conception of God was never given to the world by any religion but that of the Bible. Heathenism teaches men to look upon the Supreme Being as an object of fear rather than of love—a malign deity to be appeased by sacrifices, rather than a Father pouring upon His children the gift of His love. Even the people of Israel had become so blinded to the precious teaching of the prophets concerning God that this revelation of His paternal love was as an original subject, a new gift to the world. {MB 74.1}

In this example, Elohiym Power, especially the Most High is under a NEW name, Our Father.

What than was the Most High OLD name? Nobody in the SDA goes looking. Not even the SDA Bible research institute, who never allows ordinary SDA citizens to contact them anymore. Notice this new name relates to His paternal love.
You do not get that love from "trinity" or "trinity so called discussions"

So where has Israel become blinded concerning GOD? Well we could look in the Oldest Hebrew scroll for clues.

Job 4:1 ¶ Then Eliphaz the Temanite answered and said,

Job 4:9 By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.
In the Hebrew words here, nashamah is the breathing breath of Eloah, the Most High Old Name,
and Ruwach HS is also termed a breath of His nose.

Job 4:15 Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up:
The ruwach causes a vision and a dream to this young man.

Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
The Hebrew word under God here is Eloah, the Old Name for the Most High


18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:

Here Eloah has no faith in his servant messengers of heaven, meaning some angels sin and do folly.
This is the oldest declaration of sin every recorded in the Scriptures, long before mankind ever sinned.
Something Jews do not consider.

Job 5:12 He disappointeth the devices of the crafty, so that their hands cannot perform their enterprise.
13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.
14 They meet with darkness in the daytime,

Here the young man speaks of the arum and their deeds. Notice they meet in darkness even in the daytime.
In other words such arum creatures switch contrast themes back to front.

Job 5:17 ¶ Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

In this statement God is Eloah, His Old Name and Almighty is Shadday, the HS Old name.
What is especially significant about this book of Job and both of these old Names are used dozens of times more than Elohiym.

Why? Because these are the paternal Names of a Divine Family.

Even the people of Israel had become so blinded to the precious teaching of the prophets concerning God that this revelation of His paternal love was as an original subject, a new gift to the world. {MB 74.1}

We can supply at least 20 EGW confirming Elohim power is a Divine Family Power, yet for some reason we have decided to evoke the Hebrew words of the Bible and pretend to know the Hebrew implicitly using the English word "trinity". Not even close.

EGW: "Through Christ men and women have been adopted into the divine family as sons and daughters of God. They are given every advantage of the Saviour’s power and redeeming love.—Manuscript 85, 1899, 1-16

Does the Bible speak of Elohiym power as a Family? Only one verse:

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God "Elohiym",
Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

Shalom
 
How many YHWH are there in the Moses verse gen 19:24 ?
This is an esoteric point I will make here, but it has a bearing on an important text in Exodus 6:3 which has been mistranslated on account of people having missed this point, so I feel it is still worth making:

There are zero "YHWH" written by Moses in Gen. 19:24. He would have written "YHW."

The digital text we have today of this verse, which appears to show this spelling, will mislead you. Moses did not write the Tetragrammaton--it did not yet exist in his day. The Tetragrammaton was invented by scribes later during the times of the kings. The final "heh" (the fourth Hebrew letter) was added, not as a consonant, but as one of the early vowels which came into the writing during that era, today referred to as "matres lectionis," a Latin term meaning "reading mothers" as these were to assist with pronunciation.
 
This passage helps me but does not help you. Christ was not an angel.
Yes, he was.

Ellen White said:
Jesus was the angel enshrouded in the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night, and He gave special direction that the Hebrews should teach the law of God, given when the foundation of the earth was laid, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy. {1SM 315.2}

Jesus was the angel enshrouded in the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night, and he gave special direction that the Hebrews should teach the law of God, given when the foundation of the earth was laid, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy. The same law was proclaimed in grandeur by his own voice from Sinai. He said: “And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: and thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.” How impatient the transgressors of God’s law become when the law is mentioned; they are irritated to have it spoken of. {RH June 17, 1890, par. 9}

Ellen White said:
Christ was the angel who went before Moses, and guided the travels of the children of Israel in the wilderness. God had said to Israel, “Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions; for my name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.” Exodus 23:20-22. This angel, Christ, gave Moses the ceremonies and ordinances of the Jewish law to be repeated to the people. { RH April 29, 1875, par. 1 }n upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.” How impatient the transgressors of God’s law become when the law is mentioned; they are irritated to have it spoken of. {RH June 17, 1890, par. 9}
 
Why do we use the word "Trinity" in our creed, when it is a invented word and comes with baggage, ie : the precepts and traditions of men?

And just what Hebrew word do you make equivalent to "trinity" too?
We are not even supposed to have a creed other than the Bible, much less use the name of a false god in it.

There is no Biblical Hebrew equivalent for the word. There is no Biblical support for even the concept, as attested by even the president of Israel Institute of Biblical Studies, a Russian Orthodox (Trinitarian) professor of Biblical languages, Dr. Eli Lizorkin-Eyzenberg. His argument is that new light came after the canon was closed, just as it did on the slavery question which was still supported in Paul's day--Onesimus being sent back to his master.

Ellen White said:
The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this holy word will be in harmony. Our own views and ideas must not control our efforts. Man is fallible, but God’s word is infallible. Instead of wrangling with one another, let men exalt the Lord. Let us meet all opposition as did our Master, saying, “It is written.” Let us lift up the banner on which is inscribed, The Bible our rule of faith and discipline. {RH December 15, 1885, Art. A, par. 16}
 
You state in another place -

"This is an esoteric point I will make here, but it has a bearing on an important text in Exodus 6:3 which has been mistranslated on account of people having missed this point, so I feel it is still worth making:

There are zero "YHWH" written by Moses in Gen. 19:24. He would have written "YHW."

The digital text we have today of this verse, which appears to show this spelling, will mislead you. Moses did not write the Tetragrammaton--it did not yet exist in his day. The Tetragrammaton was invented by scribes later during the times of the kings. The final "heh" (the fourth Hebrew letter) was added, not as a consonant, but as one of the early vowels which came into the writing during that era, today referred to as "matres lectionis," a Latin term meaning "reading mothers" as these were to assist with pronunciation."

I am not going to go here - Now you are saying GOD was not smart enough to get His messages written in Hebrew preserved for all humaniity to read. Why have you quoted scripture to me as if it was inspired? Is Scripture inspired or is it not inspired? Corrupt translations is a different topic. Now you say God cannot preserve His own writings. Shalom
 
Yes, he was.
This is interesting

EGW" Christ was the angel appointed of God to go before Moses in the wilderness, conducting the Israelites in their travels to the land of Canaan.—The Review and Herald, May 6, 1875. {TA 98.1}

and

EGW: "Christ was the angel who went before Moses, and guided the travels of the children of Israel in the wilderness. God had said to Israel, “Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions; for my name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.” Exodus 23:20-22. This angel, Christ, gave Moses the ceremonies and ordinances of the Jewish law to be repeated to the people. {RH April 29, 1875, par. 1}

and

EGW: "Christ was the angel appointed of God to go before Moses in the wilderness, conducting the Israelites in their travels to the land of Canaan. Christ gave Moses his special directions to be given to Israel. “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink; for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them; and that Rock was Christ.” {RH May 6, 1875, par. 8}

These are the ONLY three messages by EGW on this theme.

Does this make Christ an cherub? Or is she quoting the Bible without correcting the fuzzy translation?

Search ""Christ was the cherub" no results

Search "Christ cherub"~10 yields 24 results

EGW: Satan seems paralyzed as he beholds the glory and majesty of Christ. He who was once a covering cherub remembers whence he has fallen. A shining seraph, “son of the morning;” how changed, how degraded! From the council where once he was honored, he is forever excluded. He sees another now standing near to the Father, veiling His glory. He has seen the crown placed upon the head of Christ by an angel of lofty stature and majestic presence, and he knows that the exalted position of this angel might have been his. {DD 56.2}

This passage says Satan is a cherub and a saraph just as Jesus is a saraph but NOT a cherub.

EGW: "Christ had worked in the heavenly courts to convince Satan of his terrible error, till at last the evil one and his sympathizers were found in open rebellion against God Himself. Then he claimed a right to take a position above Christ as covering cherub. Expelled from heaven, he came to this earth, determined to work against Christ. He is in no danger of losing the angels that he deceived. He has them under his banner, enlisted to fight against the Son of God. {TDG 256.4}

I see no mention of Christ as a cherub.

EGW: "Speaking of Satan, our Lord says that “he abode not in the truth.” He was once the covering cherub, glorious in beauty and holiness. He was next to Christ in exaltation and character. It was with Satan that self-exaltation had its origin. He became jealous of Christ, and falsely accused him, and then laid blame upon the Father. He was envious of the position that was held by Christ and the Father, and he turned from his allegiance to the Commander of heaven and lost his high and holy estate. Though the angels had a knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ, though they were happy in the glorious service which they did for the King of heaven, yet, through his crooked representations of Christ and the Father, the evil one deceived a great company of angels, drew them into sympathy with himself, and associated them with himself in rebellion. Satan and his sympathizers became the avowed antagonists of God, established their own infernal empire, and set up a standard of rebellion against the God of heaven. All the principalities and powers of evil rallied to the work of overthrowing the government of God. {RH October 22, 1895, par. 1}

Again no mention of Christ as a cherub. Only a cherub getting jealous of Christ.

EGW: "The enemy is frequently working your mind. He has endeavored to implant in your mind the same desires that he cherished when in the heavenly courts he occupied the position of covering cherub. Christ is the express image of His Father’s person, and the angels could see in the Son a perfect representation of God. Lucifer coveted the honor and glory given to Christ. He became so self-exalted that he supposed that he could do anything he desired to do because of his high position as covering cherub, and he tried to obtain for himself the position given to Christ. But Lucifer fell. He was cast out of heaven; and now he works on human minds, tempting them to follow in his footsteps. He strives to fill minds with feelings of self-exaltation and to lead them to dishonor God by turning from their allegiance to the truth and inventing many things not after God’s order. {Lt55-1903.15}

Again no mention of CHrist as a cherub.

Polyglot you are misquoting and misleading readers with deception. You need to look up all the themes before making a summary.
I hope this clears up the matter for you. EGW is just quoting a fuzzy translation. Though it make also appear because Jesus worked with cherub a lot, he seemed to be one of them. Shalom
 
We are not even supposed to have a creed other than the Bible, much less use the name of a false god in it.

There is no Biblical Hebrew equivalent for the word. There is no Biblical support for even the concept, as attested by even the president of Israel Institute of Biblical Studies, a Russian Orthodox (Trinitarian) professor of Biblical languages, Dr. Eli Lizorkin-Eyzenberg. His argument is that new light came after the canon was closed, just as it did on the slavery question which was still supported in Paul's day--Onesimus being sent back to his master.
So Polyglot is there is no Hebrew word for "trinity" why use the word?

Now does the Bible use a word to describe the God head, apart from "elohiym" ? Yes it does.

Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven

The Bible in the NT uses "family" yet for some precept and tradition reason we use "trinity". Weird.

Shalom
 
Greetings Polyglot, since you are a JW coming to spend time with the SDA, show me a Bible verse that clearly states the Most High created a cherub and His one and only Son.

How do you get "yachiyd" from billions of cherubims?

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?

Notice the cherub mentioned here has to come before the Father Most High in the Hebrew word "yalad" born, not created.

How did the cherubs come into existence as far as we know?

"in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth";

So the cherub kind creatures were created into existence, not born.

Ps 2:7 ¶ I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Again this verse parallels David as born to Christ who is also born, does this mean Christ was born also from eternity or just born with humanity from Mary's time? However the key to the misinterpretation with JW thinking is the word "born"

Christ cannot become a Son of the Most High as a cherub, because that Son was not born, it was created.

Shalom
 
I am not going to go here - Now you are saying GOD was not smart enough to get His messages written in Hebrew preserved for all humaniity to read. Why have you quoted scripture to me as if it was inspired? Is Scripture inspired or is it not inspired? Corrupt translations is a different topic. Now you say God cannot preserve His own writings. Shalom
Ellen White "went here." You ask if God has preserved His word. Read the following statements from Ellen White, and then I would be interested in your own answer to the question.

Ellen White said:
While Luther was opening a closed Bible to the people of Germany, Tyndale was impelled by the Spirit of God to do the same for England. Wycliffe’s Bible had been translated from the Latin text, which contained many errors. It had never been printed, and the cost of manuscript copies was so great that few but wealthy men or nobles could procure it; and, furthermore, being strictly proscribed by the church, it had had a comparatively narrow circulation. In 1516, a year before the appearance of Luther’s theses, Erasmus had published his Greek and Latin version of the New Testament. Now for the first time the word of God was printed in the original tongue. In this work many errors of former versions were corrected, and the sense was more clearly rendered. It led many among the educated classes to a better knowledge of the truth, and gave a new impetus to the work of reform. But the common people were still, to a great extent, debarred from God’s word. Tyndale was to complete the work of Wycliffe in giving the Bible to his countrymen. { GC 245.1}

Now what does Satan propose to do? He proposes that he is capable of changing this Bible. These parties that fell understand all about heaven, and that they can bring in the different sentiments from the Bible, and they are going to have a revision of it. You will see they will make revisions of the Bible, but every one of us needs to stand intelligently on the Word. We cannot afford to be careless, but we must have that simplicity of godliness that is a virtue to us. We must have it. {Ms80-1910}

We read in Deuteronomy four: “Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you.” It is our life to be obedient children of God. This is the highest class of education. “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.” Now mind that. Men are changing the Bible to conform to the ideas of higher education, and they have those special ones that fell from heaven, that were so enlightened, to help them in making it a very grand thing, but it will be so grand that there will be very few who accept it that will ever enter heaven. {Ms84-1910}

My answer would be this: "every one of us needs to stand intelligently on the Word. We cannot afford to be careless, but we must have that simplicity of godliness that is a virtue to us. We must have it."

Intelligent minds are capable of accepting that the Bible is not error-free, and yet that it was still authored by holy men of God who were inspired to write as they did. By carefully comparing scripture with scripture, it is more than possible to avoid deception and stumbling on account of the errors which may be there. It is akin to taking a checksum on the text--it is nearly always possible to identify the anomalies by virtue of their incongruity with the rest of scripture.
 
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