Angel Michael
- Thread starter Chomsky
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Rob, I read what you said and again ask that you stay focused on the primary topic.
Daniel 2, 45 claims that the Great God of Heaven PROMISED and assured that the only outcome would be victory. There is literally over 150 additional texts that are just as explicit as Daniel 2, 45 which affirm the exact same thing. With "God" swearing repeatedly that there was zero possibility of failure why is it so important for you (and other Adventists) to so tenaciously make God out to be a liar so that Ellen White can be true???
At this point I'm well aware you are not a Trinitarian, I get this and I'm not going to rebuke you for your beliefs on this. I'm only interested at this point of our conversation in understanding why you (& other Adventists) have zero problems allowing Ellen White to usurp God Almighty. It's really simple Rob. God said failure was not possible and Ellen comes along in the 19th century and gloats failure was very possible and that heaven itself was in peril while creature-christ was on probation. Why is that. Please stay focused.
Daniel 2, 45 claims that the Great God of Heaven PROMISED and assured that the only outcome would be victory. There is literally over 150 additional texts that are just as explicit as Daniel 2, 45 which affirm the exact same thing. With "God" swearing repeatedly that there was zero possibility of failure why is it so important for you (and other Adventists) to so tenaciously make God out to be a liar so that Ellen White can be true???
At this point I'm well aware you are not a Trinitarian, I get this and I'm not going to rebuke you for your beliefs on this. I'm only interested at this point of our conversation in understanding why you (& other Adventists) have zero problems allowing Ellen White to usurp God Almighty. It's really simple Rob. God said failure was not possible and Ellen comes along in the 19th century and gloats failure was very possible and that heaven itself was in peril while creature-christ was on probation. Why is that. Please stay focused.
rob
Active member
Greetings Grunion
You said "Rob, I read what you said and again ask that you stay focused on the primary topic.
I am on the primary focus, but Catholics like yourself, have different word meanings of Hebrew words.
How do I know you read my discussion if you do not critically discuss my points I raised?
And since you didn't raise anything - where do we go from here?
You said: "why you (& other Adventists) have zero problems allowing Ellen White to usurp God Almighty.
We don't usurp God's authority or God's ability to make prophecy with 100% accuracy.
We see Jesus doing faith in His Father as a human doing faith, so He leaves us an example how to do faith and thus live a sinless life. Mrs White is touching on the humanity of Christ - that he could have sinned, just as humans do, but chose not to - She is not touching on His deity - He could not use his own deity - that would be a sin - He always used His Father's deity though faith.
Does this make sense to you? Try talking to me why it doesn't make sense to you?
If you read my posts, great . Do you agree a Christian can live a sinless life? Like Jesus did? Through faith?
We SDA people are not talking about the deity of Christ, but the humanity of Christ. Can't you see the difference. Jesus was both, 100% deity and 100% human.
Jesus showed us how to live a sinless life, and not break faith. To us SDA this us an amazing example for us.
Do you understand what we are saying? Apparently not because you say nothing?
You say : "that heaven itself was in peril while creature-christ was on probation.
The Father knows the future, so as you say Scripture tells us Jesus mission would be a success before He did anything in human form, so does this take away the human fragility of faith - or even the Divine risk of faith with a Devil in His World?
This is a question to you - so please answer it and let's get into primary topic.
Why did Jesus come to earth in the first place Grunion? Also about your primary topic, so please answer.
Didn't He come primarily, to show humans as a human Himself, how to live a life without sinning - entirely as a human? After all no human seems able to achieve this, except a few, like Elijah, Enoch whom God took as examples of humans living sinlessly by faith. Sure I get He died to pay for sin-offering and other problems we are born with, but the most important mission is to show us how to live a sinless life. I do not read this in Catholic literature? There seems a problem with understanding faith?
Do you support the idea that the Father and the Son and the Holy support each other by faith? Please answer the question as it directly relates to your primary topic.
The ten commandments are faith principles and as eternal as God the Father is eternal and the angels and humans live a sinless life through these faith principles of love. This also means the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit also live by these faith principles in the moral law - these principles are eternal and cannot be changed. Do you agree to this idea? Please answer as this also directly affects your primary topic.
So when Mrs White is speaking of faith demonstrated by our Divine and Deity Saviour, she is referring to His humanity showing us how to live by faith. He used nothing we cannot use. He used free will and prayed to His Father. And like a human He got tired and slept, and took rests. He was also tempted to break faith by the Devil. That verse Catholics twist this to mean His humanity had an advantage over the Devil, that Jesus used his own deity to over come temptation. That would not be an example of faith to us. Instead Jesus used His Father's deity through faith, the same process any sinning human can use to become sinless.
Now you have to discuss my discussion so I know what your agreeing to or not. All these questions DIRECTLY impact your primary topic.
Shalom
You said "Rob, I read what you said and again ask that you stay focused on the primary topic.
I am on the primary focus, but Catholics like yourself, have different word meanings of Hebrew words.
How do I know you read my discussion if you do not critically discuss my points I raised?
And since you didn't raise anything - where do we go from here?
You said: "why you (& other Adventists) have zero problems allowing Ellen White to usurp God Almighty.
We don't usurp God's authority or God's ability to make prophecy with 100% accuracy.
We see Jesus doing faith in His Father as a human doing faith, so He leaves us an example how to do faith and thus live a sinless life. Mrs White is touching on the humanity of Christ - that he could have sinned, just as humans do, but chose not to - She is not touching on His deity - He could not use his own deity - that would be a sin - He always used His Father's deity though faith.
Does this make sense to you? Try talking to me why it doesn't make sense to you?
If you read my posts, great . Do you agree a Christian can live a sinless life? Like Jesus did? Through faith?
We SDA people are not talking about the deity of Christ, but the humanity of Christ. Can't you see the difference. Jesus was both, 100% deity and 100% human.
Jesus showed us how to live a sinless life, and not break faith. To us SDA this us an amazing example for us.
Do you understand what we are saying? Apparently not because you say nothing?
You say : "that heaven itself was in peril while creature-christ was on probation.
The Father knows the future, so as you say Scripture tells us Jesus mission would be a success before He did anything in human form, so does this take away the human fragility of faith - or even the Divine risk of faith with a Devil in His World?
This is a question to you - so please answer it and let's get into primary topic.
Why did Jesus come to earth in the first place Grunion? Also about your primary topic, so please answer.
Didn't He come primarily, to show humans as a human Himself, how to live a life without sinning - entirely as a human? After all no human seems able to achieve this, except a few, like Elijah, Enoch whom God took as examples of humans living sinlessly by faith. Sure I get He died to pay for sin-offering and other problems we are born with, but the most important mission is to show us how to live a sinless life. I do not read this in Catholic literature? There seems a problem with understanding faith?
Do you support the idea that the Father and the Son and the Holy support each other by faith? Please answer the question as it directly relates to your primary topic.
The ten commandments are faith principles and as eternal as God the Father is eternal and the angels and humans live a sinless life through these faith principles of love. This also means the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit also live by these faith principles in the moral law - these principles are eternal and cannot be changed. Do you agree to this idea? Please answer as this also directly affects your primary topic.
So when Mrs White is speaking of faith demonstrated by our Divine and Deity Saviour, she is referring to His humanity showing us how to live by faith. He used nothing we cannot use. He used free will and prayed to His Father. And like a human He got tired and slept, and took rests. He was also tempted to break faith by the Devil. That verse Catholics twist this to mean His humanity had an advantage over the Devil, that Jesus used his own deity to over come temptation. That would not be an example of faith to us. Instead Jesus used His Father's deity through faith, the same process any sinning human can use to become sinless.
Now you have to discuss my discussion so I know what your agreeing to or not. All these questions DIRECTLY impact your primary topic.
Shalom
No Rob, the founding SDA's had no concept of Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic word meanings - to a large degree this is what caused you to end up with the type of theology you have.
I have Rob, you just don't like the answers. It's a very simple straightforward solution - you provide me why and how Ellen White outranks Almighty God. I'm still waiting for you or any other Adventist to answer that question.
You absolutely do Rob, God has told us 100 ways from Sunday that was zero possibility of Salvation for mankind failing yet Ellen White militantly taught that there WAS a possibility of Christ failing & that this risked heaven itself. You have REPEATEDLY refused to directly address this Rob - why is that?
The hypothetical you propose is ONLY possible if you have a different Father, a different Son and a different Devil than what the Bible illustrates. So my answer is YES, what you say would be possible under Ellen White's shake-n-bake Jesus and shake-n-bake Flesh Father. This is why all the Reformers categorically reject the Jehovah's Witness position - and make no mistake Rob - you hold the same position.
To Destroy the works of the devil - to save us.
"Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3, 8
No Rob, God did not became man to show us how to become God. I realize that Ellen White had such a view of herself that she believed that Flesh Father sent her like Flesh Father sent Christ. In the SDA rubric creature-christ was sent to vindicate the law of god after lucifer put flesh father into a legal pickle. According to Ellen Lucifer charged God with being unfair - this message spread throughout the SDA multiverse where aliens on other planets started to wonder if God was fair or not. creature-christ eventually came up with a crack pot idea on how to fix everything and eventually flesh father bought off on the plan. This whole thing Rob is fiction from Ellen White's own mind - sure she borrowed much of it from another famous anti-Trinitarian but we can talk about that in another thread.
Not in the manner that SDA's think. SDA's believe in multiple different BEINGS (like a family, or military unit) and that one or more beings could cease to exist still leaving 1 or 2 of the other beings. I believe God is ONE BEING, ONE SINGLE SUBSTANCE and so where ever the Son is the Father and Holy Spirit are also and any other combination.
There is no such thing as a "ten commandment law", the law is every page of the 1st 5 Books of the Bible. Within the law there are both moral and ceremonial commandments. Your concept is a distinctive SDA concept - its alien to Scripture. Even IF there was such a thing as a 10 commandment law how would this justify your claiming that something God said was impossible could be possible?
Jesus was like us in all ways EXCEPT for sin Rob. Again, you don't need to demonstrate your anti-Trinitarianism to me here - you now need to share with me how it is that Ellen White is correct in correcting God.
rob
Active member
Thank you for replying - your view as I guessed is completely, different to my view - that is OK - I am happy for you to retain your view, but now I will test your view against the Bible and it's logic -
There are many things Satan claims - He was once a devout practicing angel doing faith and living in Divine powers all the time, how else does a creature become divine? You think angels are inherently divine - that idea is wrong - their divinity is imputed to them by their constant faith living in Eloihym power. There is no other way for living.
Already we differ. So let me prove to you such living is only possible and based on the ten commandments of faith.
Ps 119:86 All thy commandments are faithful:
The ten commandments are faith principles.
Ps 119:142 ¶ Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Here the torah (law) is declared affirming faith (truth), emeth is a faith word in a family of faith words.
Ps 119:152 ¶ Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
Here the eternal principles of faith are embedded in the ten words for ever since time began. Such faith principles cannot be changed because they empower all things (including God) hence they are "owlam".
Now the devil hated the idea of doing faith all the time, He wanted to be truly independent with power. He could see deity was with power of deity and wondered could deity do things independently? This is the highest and truest sense of the origin of sin, although the Bible is silent about the origin of sin.
Technically creatures cannot achieve independent power because all things come from God.
So Lucifer asked the Most High if He, an angel, could be like the Most High - and the Father created his request allowing such dysfunction to become observable to other angels, until a war over words broke out.
The Devil is claiming you can be like God "knowing good and evil" , "independently" as God knows but refuses to do.
That is where this primary topic of yours comes from.
You said : "Jesus was like us in all ways EXCEPT for sin Rob.
That is fuzzy Grunion.
Humans have one nature that is corrupted by Adam's sin - a fallen nature. Jesus took up this fallen nature intentionally "born of woman, born under law" - ie the law's condemnation - to truly rescue those born under the law's condemnation.
Humans are creature without the ability to show independent powers - there is no such thing as self. Self is a term that means the Devil empowers in you a sense of independency from his powers by faith forced automatically upon you. God never forces his powers upon you and in you - you always have to ask for them by faith. So both elohiym powers are very different.
Jesus on the other hand had humanity and all that humanity is - helpless on it's own, powerless on it's own and entirely dependent upon God for power, living and doing - through faith AND Jesus had something else "deity". His own deity.
Human do not have "deity". Can Deity independently have power ? This is a hypothesis the Devil raised - is it true? Dunno. That is the primary question you raise.
And the deity Jesus had (we assume) can do things apart from the Father with His deity. If the Godhead supports each other by love and does things together as faith, the Devil wondered can Deity do things independently?
That is your primary topic right there.
That is why He asked Jesus "if you are the Son of Deity" turn these stones into bread. Show us independent deity.
The Son refused. He said we must live on the Word and the Word is biological and literal bread.
He wasn't as many do with poetry similes suggesting similes are fictitious. He spoke of the similes as real.
I have read of many living biologically perfectly on the Word, when the doctors checked them inside, said they should be dead already. But God loves people with that sort of faith.
So the primary topic question is "Can deity be independent?
My answer is no it can't. It has free will to be independent, but doesn't because do so would be breaking off supporting each other and no longer perfect love. That is why Ellen White raised the messages to us. It reveals a deep infinite sacrifice about how much love the Father and Son took to take on the Devil and his claims.
You are familiar with Job
Job 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:
Lucifer broke faith in the Father - the Hebrew word here is "aman" a faith word.
Your primary topic is here - but you don't realize
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
If God saves us, why does God allow the Devil to destroy and kill us? Job's children were killed by Satan.
If God hedges us, why does God sometimes not hedge us? (going against the torah isn't this?)
If God is the ultimate source of all power, why does some power flow to Satan to use as he wants in dysfunctional ways?
Notice the tree is called function and dysfunction - not dysfunction alone. Why? Because nothing bad exists outside of God's control - all things flow via the medium. Hence God is always in control.
So nothing is truly independent, but the "possibility to be independent" can be created by God by those who wish this - that is called sin. And this is what the Devil wanted -(so this proves the possibility to be independent exists, so the Devil thought?) He thought He could tempt Christ to forever fix the Devil's independency by making Christ with His deity becoming independent, joining Satan, but Jesus refused. That is my answering your primary question in a nutshell.
That is why I posted my two pennies long ago, I do not support the idea such a condition could exist. Nothing can be truly independent - not even deity, for doing so would cause an infinite implosion. Jesus as deity knew this, and being in love with His Father refused the Devil. Now Mrs White posting this message, brings to us a very deep understanding of the nature of sin. So thanks for your question and for your continued dialogue with me - I have learnt much.
Shalom
There are many things Satan claims - He was once a devout practicing angel doing faith and living in Divine powers all the time, how else does a creature become divine? You think angels are inherently divine - that idea is wrong - their divinity is imputed to them by their constant faith living in Eloihym power. There is no other way for living.
Already we differ. So let me prove to you such living is only possible and based on the ten commandments of faith.
Ps 119:86 All thy commandments are faithful:
The ten commandments are faith principles.
Ps 119:142 ¶ Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Here the torah (law) is declared affirming faith (truth), emeth is a faith word in a family of faith words.
Ps 119:152 ¶ Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
Here the eternal principles of faith are embedded in the ten words for ever since time began. Such faith principles cannot be changed because they empower all things (including God) hence they are "owlam".
Now the devil hated the idea of doing faith all the time, He wanted to be truly independent with power. He could see deity was with power of deity and wondered could deity do things independently? This is the highest and truest sense of the origin of sin, although the Bible is silent about the origin of sin.
Technically creatures cannot achieve independent power because all things come from God.
So Lucifer asked the Most High if He, an angel, could be like the Most High - and the Father created his request allowing such dysfunction to become observable to other angels, until a war over words broke out.
The Devil is claiming you can be like God "knowing good and evil" , "independently" as God knows but refuses to do.
That is where this primary topic of yours comes from.
You said : "Jesus was like us in all ways EXCEPT for sin Rob.
That is fuzzy Grunion.
Humans have one nature that is corrupted by Adam's sin - a fallen nature. Jesus took up this fallen nature intentionally "born of woman, born under law" - ie the law's condemnation - to truly rescue those born under the law's condemnation.
Humans are creature without the ability to show independent powers - there is no such thing as self. Self is a term that means the Devil empowers in you a sense of independency from his powers by faith forced automatically upon you. God never forces his powers upon you and in you - you always have to ask for them by faith. So both elohiym powers are very different.
Jesus on the other hand had humanity and all that humanity is - helpless on it's own, powerless on it's own and entirely dependent upon God for power, living and doing - through faith AND Jesus had something else "deity". His own deity.
Human do not have "deity". Can Deity independently have power ? This is a hypothesis the Devil raised - is it true? Dunno. That is the primary question you raise.
And the deity Jesus had (we assume) can do things apart from the Father with His deity. If the Godhead supports each other by love and does things together as faith, the Devil wondered can Deity do things independently?
That is your primary topic right there.
That is why He asked Jesus "if you are the Son of Deity" turn these stones into bread. Show us independent deity.
The Son refused. He said we must live on the Word and the Word is biological and literal bread.
He wasn't as many do with poetry similes suggesting similes are fictitious. He spoke of the similes as real.
I have read of many living biologically perfectly on the Word, when the doctors checked them inside, said they should be dead already. But God loves people with that sort of faith.
So the primary topic question is "Can deity be independent?
My answer is no it can't. It has free will to be independent, but doesn't because do so would be breaking off supporting each other and no longer perfect love. That is why Ellen White raised the messages to us. It reveals a deep infinite sacrifice about how much love the Father and Son took to take on the Devil and his claims.
You are familiar with Job
Job 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:
Lucifer broke faith in the Father - the Hebrew word here is "aman" a faith word.
Your primary topic is here - but you don't realize
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
If God saves us, why does God allow the Devil to destroy and kill us? Job's children were killed by Satan.
If God hedges us, why does God sometimes not hedge us? (going against the torah isn't this?)
If God is the ultimate source of all power, why does some power flow to Satan to use as he wants in dysfunctional ways?
Notice the tree is called function and dysfunction - not dysfunction alone. Why? Because nothing bad exists outside of God's control - all things flow via the medium. Hence God is always in control.
So nothing is truly independent, but the "possibility to be independent" can be created by God by those who wish this - that is called sin. And this is what the Devil wanted -(so this proves the possibility to be independent exists, so the Devil thought?) He thought He could tempt Christ to forever fix the Devil's independency by making Christ with His deity becoming independent, joining Satan, but Jesus refused. That is my answering your primary question in a nutshell.
That is why I posted my two pennies long ago, I do not support the idea such a condition could exist. Nothing can be truly independent - not even deity, for doing so would cause an infinite implosion. Jesus as deity knew this, and being in love with His Father refused the Devil. Now Mrs White posting this message, brings to us a very deep understanding of the nature of sin. So thanks for your question and for your continued dialogue with me - I have learnt much.
Shalom
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rob
Active member
Greetings Grunion been driving heaps today so lots of hours to think through your primary question.
You are right God knows all things, wrote them about His Son before He lived as a human in faith to His Father,
this cannot take away the human decisions and the fragile nature of being a human for us.
Since God represents the grand infinity set, God has to know and experience all things in Infinity, but dysfunction God does not do personally even though He knows this because it is the opposite of function. So....
Primary Question: Can God be independent ? Such a theme must exist in theory but not in practice.
Since all things are controlled and driven by God nothing therefore can be truly independent of God.
But this notion has to be false because a sense of being independent exists - ie you can sin - sin is not just transgressing the law - sin is more than just breaking faith - sin is being independent from God.
So there has to be the possibility of God being independent, but God chooses not to. God chooses to love each other.
Lucifer the chief angel, saw the three deities working together: inseparable, so what would happen if they become independent?
Such a thought arising from something seen in God but not done by God, puzzled the angel and he wondered if being truly independent was possible, and if so he wanted this power. He wanted to be like the Most High - only in terms of independent power.
If you say Deity cannot possibly sin, than there cannot possibly be an alternative to free will, and thus no possible ability for independent deity to exist. But if being independent is a possibility for deity but they choose not to be independent, than the free will manifests an alternative, an alternative that deity cannot do, and chooses not to do.
I don't see Ellen White contradicting God, she is only showing us where sin might have came from and why.
Hope this discussion satisfy you.
You ask: "..Why do you take Ellen's position over God?
Because "independent as a theme exists" - it has to, so free will has an alternative - so sin can be a valid decision
The Devil said to Eve "thou shalt not sure die" - did the Devil lie? or was he wondering since he sinned he didn't die yet, so maybe God was hiding something - that being independent from God is a valid alternative? It must have hurt the Devil to see Eve die eventually since the Devil hasn't die yet.
Question: if the possibility of being independent exists within the Godhead, because they show dependency, but they choose not to be independent, what happens if one is independent of God? This is what Lucifer wondered....
The angel looking at the family members of deity loving each other; wondered; there must be an alternative - if all things depend upon God, than there must also exist in-dependency from God - hence sin became a reality and God created Lucifer to be independent since he wanted power on his own.
Do you agree the "independent theme" has to exist , but God chooses NOT to be independent.
It's like saying God is love, therefore there must also exist "hate" its opposite.
Since all the deity support and love each other, there must also exist the possibility for being selfish, it's opposite.
But than Einstein said of light and darkness. Darkness does not exist, darkness is a term to explain a lack of light.
Cold does not exist either, it is a term to describe a lack of heat.
And finally evil does not exist either, it is a term to describe the lack of God's power in your life.
This might explain why Jesus never became independent, because such a thing would never exist, only love and being love truly exists. So we ponder mysteries.
Shalom
You are right God knows all things, wrote them about His Son before He lived as a human in faith to His Father,
this cannot take away the human decisions and the fragile nature of being a human for us.
Since God represents the grand infinity set, God has to know and experience all things in Infinity, but dysfunction God does not do personally even though He knows this because it is the opposite of function. So....
Primary Question: Can God be independent ? Such a theme must exist in theory but not in practice.
Since all things are controlled and driven by God nothing therefore can be truly independent of God.
But this notion has to be false because a sense of being independent exists - ie you can sin - sin is not just transgressing the law - sin is more than just breaking faith - sin is being independent from God.
So there has to be the possibility of God being independent, but God chooses not to. God chooses to love each other.
Lucifer the chief angel, saw the three deities working together: inseparable, so what would happen if they become independent?
Such a thought arising from something seen in God but not done by God, puzzled the angel and he wondered if being truly independent was possible, and if so he wanted this power. He wanted to be like the Most High - only in terms of independent power.
If you say Deity cannot possibly sin, than there cannot possibly be an alternative to free will, and thus no possible ability for independent deity to exist. But if being independent is a possibility for deity but they choose not to be independent, than the free will manifests an alternative, an alternative that deity cannot do, and chooses not to do.
I don't see Ellen White contradicting God, she is only showing us where sin might have came from and why.
Hope this discussion satisfy you.
You ask: "..Why do you take Ellen's position over God?
Because "independent as a theme exists" - it has to, so free will has an alternative - so sin can be a valid decision
The Devil said to Eve "thou shalt not sure die" - did the Devil lie? or was he wondering since he sinned he didn't die yet, so maybe God was hiding something - that being independent from God is a valid alternative? It must have hurt the Devil to see Eve die eventually since the Devil hasn't die yet.
Question: if the possibility of being independent exists within the Godhead, because they show dependency, but they choose not to be independent, what happens if one is independent of God? This is what Lucifer wondered....
The angel looking at the family members of deity loving each other; wondered; there must be an alternative - if all things depend upon God, than there must also exist in-dependency from God - hence sin became a reality and God created Lucifer to be independent since he wanted power on his own.
Do you agree the "independent theme" has to exist , but God chooses NOT to be independent.
It's like saying God is love, therefore there must also exist "hate" its opposite.
Since all the deity support and love each other, there must also exist the possibility for being selfish, it's opposite.
But than Einstein said of light and darkness. Darkness does not exist, darkness is a term to explain a lack of light.
Cold does not exist either, it is a term to describe a lack of heat.
And finally evil does not exist either, it is a term to describe the lack of God's power in your life.
This might explain why Jesus never became independent, because such a thing would never exist, only love and being love truly exists. So we ponder mysteries.
Shalom
rob
Active member
Distinguishing between God’s Freedom and Our Free Will
No, God couldn’t be God without being all-knowing (omniscient) and all-powerful (omnipotent). If he had such limitations, he would be vulnerable to negative imp...
No, God couldn’t be God without being all-knowing (omniscient) and all-powerful (omnipotent). If he had such limitations, he would be vulnerable to negative impact by someone or something greater than himself. In other words, he wouldn’t be eternal God, but someone created and limited, no matter how lofty his nature otherwise.
So as the eternal Son of God who became man, Jesus Christ not only didn’t sin, he couldn’t have sinned. Again, if he were vulnerable to sin, he would not have been God. Consequently, we see that the perfection of freedom is being impervious to—including being free from committing—sin, something the saints in heaven enjoy.
Mere human persons on earth, on the other hand, do not yet have such perfections, especially given our fallen nature. So while we are created without the need to hate, we can freely choose to hate. And if God prevented us from hating, he would not be truly loving us. For love coerced is not love at all.
And so it was with our first parents (CCC 374ff; 390.) God respected the free will of Adam and Eve. Yet, God also doesn’t let sin and death have the last word either, sending his only begotten Son to become man and redeem us all through his one Sacrifice of Calvary.
Rob : This answer is so brief so succinct, it says nothing/
So do we get to heaven to become impervious to sin? does God remove free will?
or do the people who get there choose not to sin ever again?
If the Father is God and Jesus is God and the HS is God, and there is one God, how is this possible?
Catholics says A is human, B is human C is human, we have one human. No we have three humans.
Not do they get one God from three deities?
If you clone infinity as copies you have one infinity, not three infinities, because infinity is no countable as lower maths numbers are - so I get this as an idea. But catholics do not explain their terms.
If you have three persons there must be three natures, but God has one nature. How is this possible?
We in the SDA world speak of the term Godhead, referring to deity
So there is three members of deity within the Godhead, but one GOD.
The three members of deity become one in unity or compound unity: by loving and pressing together.
If Jesus could never have sinned, why did he die for sinners?
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. (KJV)
The Bible says the priest must have experienced our infirmities, yet remain sinless.
So this verse is fake, according to the Catholic because Jesus cannot sin and cannot be tempted to sin.
Catholics get around this problem saying the Devil didn't know it was God in earth and tempted him to sin just as another ordinary human? Funny the demons knew He was the Son of God, have you come to torture us early they asked?
Something no quite right here?
Shalom
I already know you don't believe the Son is God in the same way the Father is God...
...So your saying - Michael the archangel became man & because Lucifer could sin.
....Obviously Jesus could sin as Michael exchanged his angel nature for human.
I understand that that's all historic Adventism and while abhorrent to me THAT's not what I'm after....
...EVEN SO, for the sake of argument I allow you to present Michael the archangel as potential creature-christ.
...My prior short and simple question for you still remains.
Here is that same question again:
"The Great God of Heaven said (in Daniel 2) that failure was impossible...
...Ellen White claimed failure WAS possible.
...Why do you take Ellen's position over God"?
Do you understand the question, Rob? Even if I allow for your cherished creature-christ...
...The Great God of Heaven still guaranteed the mutation capable creature would succeed.
....Is the God of heaven great and error free or not Rob? Can the great God of heaven tater the bed so to speak?
This is a reasonable question to ask Adventists.
https://adventist.forum/javascript:
rob
Active member
Da 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. (Fuzzy KJV)
The word God here is "Eloah" meaning "heavenly Father"
So the Father knows all things into the future.
You wrote wrong of Michael who is Jesus-Elohiym - the word "archangel" does not mean one is of a cherub kind, the term refers to one who is commander in chief of cherubim.
Da 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
This kingdom the Father sets up is given to His Son.
Da 7:9 ¶ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
The Father is also titled as the Ancient of Days.
Da 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Here is the one like the Son of man who sits next to the Father, to receive His kingdom.
Notice the term for Son is "bar" meaning Seed and is a slightly different term than "ben" the word for son through biological begotten means. The Son (bar) came forth from the Father as a "bar elohiym", which we term the "Son of God".
Da 12:1 ¶ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Here the same Son of Man who was sitting near His Father for all of Daniel, stands up ready to receive His kingdom, is the same Jesus-Elohiym who sat down near His Father.
The Lamb's book of life is a clue to how we identify the shortened way of saying Ps 113:5
So that is what I get from Daniel 2, regarding the prophecy about Michael, who is like YHWH-Elohiym
Just because the Father makes 100% prophecy does not removed the daily steps along the way?
If you knew before hand you would be saved by the Father, a billion years before you were born, and if you could remember this fact when you become a baby and grew up as a child making child like decisions, get my point ? How much did Jesus know of this ?
Well he read them in the Father's book, he would succeed, so He read the words and by faith accepted his path of success.
I don't get your problem? Ask a simple question without rude remarks? What is your problem with us? You have read all I said, what is wrong with my answers?
God is the only beings in all Beings who can choose to live independently but they choose not to, because they wish to develop love and loving for all eternity. They understand that "hate" the opposite of "love" cannot exist, so independence cannot exist, so free will cannot exist either, but God is showing love, so must allow for an opposite affect, and so this possibility of being independent of God, must be a choice for creatures of creation. The angel who saw these things thought maybe God is lying and so wanted to be independent of God.
If God can empower Divine powers in us, by faith, why than do we sin still and fail? These other humans who are saved by Jesus, what kind of humans are they? Sinless or sinning still? Jesus who is God decided to become a human with all its fallen natures of fragility. He only knew He was God by reading the Bible and some miracles shown to Him by His Father.
I know of some humans who also get a few miracles of love over them yet they continue to sin? Why is that? How come when Jesus took up humanity He didn't sin? If you say He was God and couldn't sin, than He wasn't able to feel our infirmities and yet remain sinless? He had some advantage we do not have. I love a perfect but personal God, not an impersonal but perfect one.
Answer the question why Jesus died?
Why couldn't humans like Adam and Eve repent and return back to God, like heaps of sinning angels did , before Michael fought over those who chose not to repent, and banished them to Earth? Humans were the second creatures to have sinned, not like the first creatures who have sinned, so God is dealing with sin by different creatures who sin.
The word God here is "Eloah" meaning "heavenly Father"
So the Father knows all things into the future.
You wrote wrong of Michael who is Jesus-Elohiym - the word "archangel" does not mean one is of a cherub kind, the term refers to one who is commander in chief of cherubim.
Da 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
This kingdom the Father sets up is given to His Son.
Da 7:9 ¶ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
The Father is also titled as the Ancient of Days.
Da 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Here is the one like the Son of man who sits next to the Father, to receive His kingdom.
Notice the term for Son is "bar" meaning Seed and is a slightly different term than "ben" the word for son through biological begotten means. The Son (bar) came forth from the Father as a "bar elohiym", which we term the "Son of God".
Da 12:1 ¶ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Here the same Son of Man who was sitting near His Father for all of Daniel, stands up ready to receive His kingdom, is the same Jesus-Elohiym who sat down near His Father.
The Lamb's book of life is a clue to how we identify the shortened way of saying Ps 113:5
So that is what I get from Daniel 2, regarding the prophecy about Michael, who is like YHWH-Elohiym
Just because the Father makes 100% prophecy does not removed the daily steps along the way?
If you knew before hand you would be saved by the Father, a billion years before you were born, and if you could remember this fact when you become a baby and grew up as a child making child like decisions, get my point ? How much did Jesus know of this ?
Well he read them in the Father's book, he would succeed, so He read the words and by faith accepted his path of success.
I don't get your problem? Ask a simple question without rude remarks? What is your problem with us? You have read all I said, what is wrong with my answers?
God is the only beings in all Beings who can choose to live independently but they choose not to, because they wish to develop love and loving for all eternity. They understand that "hate" the opposite of "love" cannot exist, so independence cannot exist, so free will cannot exist either, but God is showing love, so must allow for an opposite affect, and so this possibility of being independent of God, must be a choice for creatures of creation. The angel who saw these things thought maybe God is lying and so wanted to be independent of God.
If God can empower Divine powers in us, by faith, why than do we sin still and fail? These other humans who are saved by Jesus, what kind of humans are they? Sinless or sinning still? Jesus who is God decided to become a human with all its fallen natures of fragility. He only knew He was God by reading the Bible and some miracles shown to Him by His Father.
I know of some humans who also get a few miracles of love over them yet they continue to sin? Why is that? How come when Jesus took up humanity He didn't sin? If you say He was God and couldn't sin, than He wasn't able to feel our infirmities and yet remain sinless? He had some advantage we do not have. I love a perfect but personal God, not an impersonal but perfect one.
Answer the question why Jesus died?
Why couldn't humans like Adam and Eve repent and return back to God, like heaps of sinning angels did , before Michael fought over those who chose not to repent, and banished them to Earth? Humans were the second creatures to have sinned, not like the first creatures who have sinned, so God is dealing with sin by different creatures who sin.
rob
Active member
"The Great God of Heaven said (in Daniel 2) that failure was impossible. Did I get the right verse? Prophecy never fails.
Ellen White claimed failure WAS possible. She did? Where? This context is about prophecy? Show me an exact message from EGW that one can readily confirm her message as contradicting God message in the Bible.
Why do you take Ellen's position over God"? Are you saying EGW is a false prophet?
CCC: "The Son of God . worked with human hands; he thought with a human mind. He acted with a human will, and with a human heart he loved. Born of the Virgin Mary, he has truly been made one of us, like to us in all things except sin.[GS 22 § 2] [2599]
OK if Jesus was truly human, why couldn't he have sinned?
Did His deity inside him talk to His humanity? Or did He read the Word and knew by Faith he could live a sinless life?
The latter answer is more impressive to me. Something I can aspire to.
CCC: "
475 Similarly, at the sixth ecumenical council, Constantinople III in 681, the Church confessed that Christ possesses two wills and two natural operations, divine and human. They are not opposed to each other, but co-operate in such a way that the Word made flesh willed humanly in obedience to his Father all that he had decided divinely with the Father and the Holy Spirit for our salvation.[Cf. Council of Constantinople III (681): DS 556-559] Christ's human will "does not resist or oppose but rather submits to his divine and almighty will."[Council of Constantinople III: DS 556] [2008,2824]
Oh, so the deity inside did talk to the humanity inside. Oh well than Jesus was not an example for us as a human, he had an advantage over us. A perfect loving Son of God yes, but not a personal Son of God who knew our infirmities and yet was without sin - because he had perfect faith in His Father, which while is available to all humans, we doubt and stumble over words of faith.
Now where does this CCC come from? They are inspired words because they are the foundation of Catholic doctrine.
The SDA is different, our foundation is sola scriptora and we use EGW as our Hebrew English translator.
Shalom
Ellen White claimed failure WAS possible. She did? Where? This context is about prophecy? Show me an exact message from EGW that one can readily confirm her message as contradicting God message in the Bible.
Why do you take Ellen's position over God"? Are you saying EGW is a false prophet?
CCC: "The Son of God . worked with human hands; he thought with a human mind. He acted with a human will, and with a human heart he loved. Born of the Virgin Mary, he has truly been made one of us, like to us in all things except sin.[GS 22 § 2] [2599]
OK if Jesus was truly human, why couldn't he have sinned?
Did His deity inside him talk to His humanity? Or did He read the Word and knew by Faith he could live a sinless life?
The latter answer is more impressive to me. Something I can aspire to.
CCC: "
475 Similarly, at the sixth ecumenical council, Constantinople III in 681, the Church confessed that Christ possesses two wills and two natural operations, divine and human. They are not opposed to each other, but co-operate in such a way that the Word made flesh willed humanly in obedience to his Father all that he had decided divinely with the Father and the Holy Spirit for our salvation.[Cf. Council of Constantinople III (681): DS 556-559] Christ's human will "does not resist or oppose but rather submits to his divine and almighty will."[Council of Constantinople III: DS 556] [2008,2824]
Oh, so the deity inside did talk to the humanity inside. Oh well than Jesus was not an example for us as a human, he had an advantage over us. A perfect loving Son of God yes, but not a personal Son of God who knew our infirmities and yet was without sin - because he had perfect faith in His Father, which while is available to all humans, we doubt and stumble over words of faith.
Now where does this CCC come from? They are inspired words because they are the foundation of Catholic doctrine.
The SDA is different, our foundation is sola scriptora and we use EGW as our Hebrew English translator.
Shalom
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Rob, post # 7 in the creature-christ thread you participated in has several Scriptures which attest to what I've maintained. Feel free to take issue with any one of them.
Like the Bible, the CCC affirms that Christ was like us in all ways EXCEPT FOR SIN...
...Adventists, being Arian, always omit that part of the Scripture.
....Because it's needful for them to pay homage to Ellen White.
....Who preaches a different / another Jesus.
....A Jesus who could have sinned.
We've been over all of this before.
Like the Bible, the CCC affirms that Christ was like us in all ways EXCEPT FOR SIN...
...Adventists, being Arian, always omit that part of the Scripture.
....Because it's needful for them to pay homage to Ellen White.
....Who preaches a different / another Jesus.
....A Jesus who could have sinned.
We've been over all of this before.
Seventh-day Adventists are less sola Scriptura than are Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics...
...You are not sola-scriptura Rob, that's seriously laughable.
...Lutherans would laugh at your outlandish statement.
SDA distinctive Doctrines were all based upon the supposed visions of Ellen White...
...NOT Bible alone.
rob
Active member
Greetings Grunion
SDA distinctive Doctrines were all based upon the supposed visions of Ellen White...
...NOT Bible alone.
Comment on my last post than #109
I gave you many Daniel Bible verses describing that the Son of Man sitting down near the Father is the same person standing up in Daniel 12, called the title Michael, from Ps 113:5 who is like YHWH-Elohiym.
I get this assessment from reading Scripture alone - not for our prophet.
How come the CCC see Michael as an angel? and to confuse us Michael is also a name for Jesus?
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JESUS AND THE NAME "MICHAEL"
Some have misinterpreted the beginning of our prayer pattern *Jehovah, Jesus Christ , holy Michael* to mean that Angel Michael is a part of the Trinity. This is not true.
To clarify the mentioning of *Michael* when we kick start pray in CCC, one needs to understand the revelation of the association between *Jesus* and the name *Michael*.
Note: not "Jesus and angel Micheal" but "Jesus and the name 'Michael'"
Rev 19:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a *white horse*; and he that sat upon him was called *Faithful and True*, and in righteousness he doth judge and mke war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were my crowns;and he had a *name* written, that no m knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called *The Word of God*.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him uponwhite horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a nae written, *KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS*.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Comeand gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Clearly, the person on the *white horse* here is *Jesus*
This same event (an aftermth of the end of the world) is recorded in the CCC hym..
Hym 808, especially stanzas 2 and 3
1.Father, the Son, Holy
Spirit,
Thou our lord would make use
of us completely,
Thou the Father who called us,
And we hearken to thee
2. *Jesus Christ* is coming,
To give judgement to the
world,
*Holy Michel* the captain,
Shall ride to the earth
3.With seven blazing swords,
A deadly club at their side,
Horses shall traple on
human beings,
The judgement time has
arrived.
Amen.
In this hym, both *Jesus* and the name *Michael* appear. In the Bible , it was Jesus that rode on the horse. In the hymn *Michael*
Which Michael? Angel Michael? No! Why? Because Jesus is not an angel.
So, why is the hymn referring to Jesus as Michael?
Because the name *Michael* belongs to *Jesus* while *angel Michael* is an angel who carries out the duty of warfare attached to the name *Michael* throught the victorious name of Jesus. How come ?
The name Michael belongs to Jesus but the duty of this name (victory and conquering ) has been assigned to an angel called *angel Michael*. This is why during the 1St rebellion in heaven , *angel Michael* and his angels used the *blood of Jesus* and the *word of his testimony ( the sword)* to overcome the devil and his angel s.
Michael means *who is like God*. That is a question.
Let's answer the question. Who is like God ? Jesus! Why?
Jesus is the exact representation of God. God's exact image.
Col 1:15 Who is the *image of the invisible God* the firstborn of every creature:
John 14:
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath *seen me hath seen the Father*; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and *the Word was God*.
Note: Jesus is the word.
In the hymns of CCC, the name *Michael* refers to Jesus and at times to angel Michael.
For instance...
Hymn 5
1. Let us sinners repent from sins.
*Jesus Christ* will descend into our midst (us)
Let us sinners repent from sins.
Jesus Christ will descend into our midst (us)
Where shall we await Jesus Christ that we Might see him,
In the holy church shall we see Jesus,
Where shall we await Jesus Christ that we Might see him,
In the holy church shall we see Jesus,
2. When Jesus cometh,
We should kneel down,
*St. Michael* will descend into
our midst (us)
When Jesus cometh,
we should kneel down,
St. Michael will descend into
our midst (us)
When we have knelt down,
*Michael* has come,
*Forgiveness is what we all sinners* should all plead for,
When we have knelt down,
*Michael* has come,
*Forgiveness is what we all sinners* should all plead for.
Amen.
*Questions*
If the *Michael* in this hymn is *angel micheal*:
1. What right does an angel have to enter into us?
2. Can an angel enter into man?
3. The hymn is about forgiveness of sin, what business has angel Michael got to do with forgiveness of sin?
Also consider the the Amissa Hymn : bene le... Wa kalo so odo oluwa.... So ke orun so do Michael mimo...
Who is Oluwa (lord)? Jesus . Is Angel Michael lord? No! So, why is the hymn mentioning *Lord* i.e. Jesus and *Michael* together just like we observed in the earlier hymn. Because the issue at hand has to do with warfare. Which the name Micheal has been empowered to do.
*Conclusion*: the name Michael belongs to Jesus. That name has been assigned to an angel whom we know as *angel Michael* (malaka ajagun segun ode orun). Thus, in CCC, we pray to the father, through the son (Jesus) under the guardian of the authority of the conquering and victorious name 'Micheal' which has been assigned to save the sons of God during the operations of the spirit of the mystery of Iniquity (antichrist).-Dan 12:1.
Hymn 377, stanzas 5-7 clearly makes us to understand the spiritual modus operandi of Jehovah the father, Jesus the Son and the name 'Micheal' while stanza 8 clearly also state the trinity (father, son and holy spirit) distinctively. Hence, no contest/confusion between the trios (Jehovah, Jesus, Micheal) and (Jehovah, Jesus, Holy spirit). These 2 are spiritual systemic operations of God. The latter trio is commonly known to the generality of the body of Christ while the former was revealed to CCC in our prayer and through our Hymns. The biblical understanding of the former trio can only be traced from angel Michael through the revelation of his link with Jesus (as explained above).
Rob: Show me from Scripture only that Michael is an cherub / angel?
Posts like this show traditions and precepts of men , make understanding the Bible confusing.
Now in Post #109 I gave you my texts to prove the Son of Man is Michael.
This Catholic post also agrees? What saith Grunion ?
Shalom
SDA distinctive Doctrines were all based upon the supposed visions of Ellen White...
...NOT Bible alone.
Comment on my last post than #109
I gave you many Daniel Bible verses describing that the Son of Man sitting down near the Father is the same person standing up in Daniel 12, called the title Michael, from Ps 113:5 who is like YHWH-Elohiym.
I get this assessment from reading Scripture alone - not for our prophet.
How come the CCC see Michael as an angel? and to confuse us Michael is also a name for Jesus?
Celestial Church of Christ, Osun State Youth Organization
JESUS AND THE NAME "MICHAEL" Some have misinterpreted the beginning of our prayer pattern *Jehovah, Jesus Christ , holy Michael* to mean that Angel Michael is a part of the Trinity. This is not...
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Celestial Church of Christ, Osun State Youth Organization
dperontosSmi69Nvmh, c534ugm2e7rl1o5210 2m40itbii1tmgt20023e7 ·JESUS AND THE NAME "MICHAEL"
Some have misinterpreted the beginning of our prayer pattern *Jehovah, Jesus Christ , holy Michael* to mean that Angel Michael is a part of the Trinity. This is not true.
To clarify the mentioning of *Michael* when we kick start pray in CCC, one needs to understand the revelation of the association between *Jesus* and the name *Michael*.
Note: not "Jesus and angel Micheal" but "Jesus and the name 'Michael'"
Rev 19:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a *white horse*; and he that sat upon him was called *Faithful and True*, and in righteousness he doth judge and mke war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were my crowns;and he had a *name* written, that no m knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called *The Word of God*.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him uponwhite horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a nae written, *KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS*.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Comeand gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Clearly, the person on the *white horse* here is *Jesus*
This same event (an aftermth of the end of the world) is recorded in the CCC hym..
Hym 808, especially stanzas 2 and 3
1.Father, the Son, Holy
Spirit,
Thou our lord would make use
of us completely,
Thou the Father who called us,
And we hearken to thee
2. *Jesus Christ* is coming,
To give judgement to the
world,
*Holy Michel* the captain,
Shall ride to the earth
3.With seven blazing swords,
A deadly club at their side,
Horses shall traple on
human beings,
The judgement time has
arrived.
Amen.
In this hym, both *Jesus* and the name *Michael* appear. In the Bible , it was Jesus that rode on the horse. In the hymn *Michael*
Which Michael? Angel Michael? No! Why? Because Jesus is not an angel.
So, why is the hymn referring to Jesus as Michael?
Because the name *Michael* belongs to *Jesus* while *angel Michael* is an angel who carries out the duty of warfare attached to the name *Michael* throught the victorious name of Jesus. How come ?
The name Michael belongs to Jesus but the duty of this name (victory and conquering ) has been assigned to an angel called *angel Michael*. This is why during the 1St rebellion in heaven , *angel Michael* and his angels used the *blood of Jesus* and the *word of his testimony ( the sword)* to overcome the devil and his angel s.
Michael means *who is like God*. That is a question.
Let's answer the question. Who is like God ? Jesus! Why?
Jesus is the exact representation of God. God's exact image.
Col 1:15 Who is the *image of the invisible God* the firstborn of every creature:
John 14:
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath *seen me hath seen the Father*; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and *the Word was God*.
Note: Jesus is the word.
In the hymns of CCC, the name *Michael* refers to Jesus and at times to angel Michael.
For instance...
Hymn 5
1. Let us sinners repent from sins.
*Jesus Christ* will descend into our midst (us)
Let us sinners repent from sins.
Jesus Christ will descend into our midst (us)
Where shall we await Jesus Christ that we Might see him,
In the holy church shall we see Jesus,
Where shall we await Jesus Christ that we Might see him,
In the holy church shall we see Jesus,
2. When Jesus cometh,
We should kneel down,
*St. Michael* will descend into
our midst (us)
When Jesus cometh,
we should kneel down,
St. Michael will descend into
our midst (us)
When we have knelt down,
*Michael* has come,
*Forgiveness is what we all sinners* should all plead for,
When we have knelt down,
*Michael* has come,
*Forgiveness is what we all sinners* should all plead for.
Amen.
*Questions*
If the *Michael* in this hymn is *angel micheal*:
1. What right does an angel have to enter into us?
2. Can an angel enter into man?
3. The hymn is about forgiveness of sin, what business has angel Michael got to do with forgiveness of sin?
Also consider the the Amissa Hymn : bene le... Wa kalo so odo oluwa.... So ke orun so do Michael mimo...
Who is Oluwa (lord)? Jesus . Is Angel Michael lord? No! So, why is the hymn mentioning *Lord* i.e. Jesus and *Michael* together just like we observed in the earlier hymn. Because the issue at hand has to do with warfare. Which the name Micheal has been empowered to do.
*Conclusion*: the name Michael belongs to Jesus. That name has been assigned to an angel whom we know as *angel Michael* (malaka ajagun segun ode orun). Thus, in CCC, we pray to the father, through the son (Jesus) under the guardian of the authority of the conquering and victorious name 'Micheal' which has been assigned to save the sons of God during the operations of the spirit of the mystery of Iniquity (antichrist).-Dan 12:1.
Hymn 377, stanzas 5-7 clearly makes us to understand the spiritual modus operandi of Jehovah the father, Jesus the Son and the name 'Micheal' while stanza 8 clearly also state the trinity (father, son and holy spirit) distinctively. Hence, no contest/confusion between the trios (Jehovah, Jesus, Micheal) and (Jehovah, Jesus, Holy spirit). These 2 are spiritual systemic operations of God. The latter trio is commonly known to the generality of the body of Christ while the former was revealed to CCC in our prayer and through our Hymns. The biblical understanding of the former trio can only be traced from angel Michael through the revelation of his link with Jesus (as explained above).
Rob: Show me from Scripture only that Michael is an cherub / angel?
Posts like this show traditions and precepts of men , make understanding the Bible confusing.
Now in Post #109 I gave you my texts to prove the Son of Man is Michael.
This Catholic post also agrees? What saith Grunion ?
Shalom
Rob, I'm not a member of the CCC (Celestial Church of Christ). I think you thought that sect stood for the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It doesn't. In any event you misunderstood what the Celestial Church of Christ was saying - if you read their fundamental beliefs you will see that they are Trinitarian and do NOT believe that Michael the archangel was (or in some way is) Christ. Like the SDA Church the Celestial Church of Christ pays homage to a modern day prophet,
In any event I have no knowledge on the abstract celestial church of Christ aside from what their fundamental beliefs page says. If you want to know what Catholicism says it would be better for you to focus your Study on Scripture, the Catechism of the Catholic Church .
Rob, please, I get it (I understand) you are anti-Trinitarian - my question to you is about the interpretation of the Dream toward the end of Daniel Chapter 2. My question to you was how you reconcile what the Great God of Heaven said would be the final outcome with what your prophet Ellen said? It doesn't matter WHO or WHAT you slide into the place of Christ there, it can be Michael the archangel, a toad on a rope, a pumpkin, whatever you want it to be.
I'm interested in the logic or theological mechanism you use to put more faith in what Ellen White said than in what God said so many times in Sacred Scripture. THAT IS THE QUESTION.
In any event I have no knowledge on the abstract celestial church of Christ aside from what their fundamental beliefs page says. If you want to know what Catholicism says it would be better for you to focus your Study on Scripture, the Catechism of the Catholic Church .
Rob, please, I get it (I understand) you are anti-Trinitarian - my question to you is about the interpretation of the Dream toward the end of Daniel Chapter 2. My question to you was how you reconcile what the Great God of Heaven said would be the final outcome with what your prophet Ellen said? It doesn't matter WHO or WHAT you slide into the place of Christ there, it can be Michael the archangel, a toad on a rope, a pumpkin, whatever you want it to be.
I'm interested in the logic or theological mechanism you use to put more faith in what Ellen White said than in what God said so many times in Sacred Scripture. THAT IS THE QUESTION.
rob
Active member
Greetings Grunion
Ok sorry about the mistake, but again while I like talking to you, you seem not to discuss together with me?
I gave you post #109 about why Michel is the Son of God - no need for prophet help - Bible verses are clear.
(1) Explain using Scripture how Michael is an cherub.
(if you can't use Scripture alone - I allow you to quote the CCC back to me - as it seems Catholic authority ?)
The the Catechism of the Catholic Church even celebrate Michael as an angel. OK where does the Bible say you can celebrate feasts dedicated to angels? Leviticus 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD,
Even Jews add feasts to their torah, like Esther which is OK in a way for Jews.
Show me Bible verse explaining Michael as a cherub.
Nearly all verses only show angels as messengers "malak" so their creature substance as :cherub: is rarely mentioned.
Also I would like some feedback about questions I asked before:
(2) If Jesus is doings are written in prophecy, and all prophecy is 100% accurate, does this fact remove the struggle of Jesus as a human? Discuss.
My answer is no, but you want me to say Jesus could never have sinned. Only The Father and the Son and the HS can show independent powers, but they refuse to do so for selfish reasons as the word independent implies. They wish instead to unite perfectly as a Family of love. You can read my discussion on this in previous posts.
If God knows your future and writes your name down in the Lamb's book of life a billions years before you are born, how does this fact remove free will, daily struggles with faith and fragile communion of the human to God, before He dies and locks in his salivation? What you are asking me is to remove all the fragile nature of a human struggle and stick to what God said.
If Jesus as both 100% man and 100% deity, could never have sinned, than "independent" as a theme, cannot exist. Therefore free will cannot exist. Breaking faith cannot exist, and therefore sin cannot exist. Get my point? Creatures are always dependent upon God. I have discussed this also before, but no discussion from you on this theme?
(3) Discuss a deeper look into the nature of Christ. Where did His powers of divinity come from?
My answer is from faith - he asked His Father to empower Him with the Father's divine presence, Jesus did not use His own Divine power, or His own divine substance. To do so would be "independent" and this is defined by me as a "sin".
Instead Jesus had to be "dependent" upon His Father. Just as humans are always "dependent" upon Jesus. Read my previous discussions on this too, but no discussions from you?
Also I showed you two CCC about how Jesus has two wills inside of Him. Can you explain that to me?
You read the passage I suppose by refused to comment:
CCC: "The Son of God . worked with human hands; he thought with a human mind. He acted with a human will, and with a human heart he loved. Born of the Virgin Mary, he has truly been made one of us, like to us in all things except sin.[GS 22 § 2] [2599]
OK if Jesus was truly human, I like this CCC, why couldn't he have sinned?
Did His deity inside him talk to His humanity? Or did He read the Word and knew by Faith he could live a sinless life?
The latter answer is more impressive to me. Something I can aspire to.
CCC: "
475 Similarly, at the sixth ecumenical council, Constantinople III in 681, the Church confessed that Christ possesses two wills and two natural operations, divine and human. They are not opposed to each other, but co-operate in such a way that the Word made flesh willed humanly in obedience to his Father all that he had decided divinely with the Father and the Holy Spirit for our salvation.[Cf. Council of Constantinople III (681): DS 556-559] Christ's human will "does not resist or oppose but rather submits to his divine and almighty will."[Council of Constantinople III: DS 556] [2008,2824]
Oh, so the deity inside did talked to the humanity inside. Oh well than Jesus was not an example for us as a human, he had an advantage over us. A perfect loving Son of God yes, but not a personal Son of God who knew our infirmities and yet was without sin - because he had perfect faith in His Father, which while is available to all humans, we doubt and stumble over words of faith.
I will stop here with three questions, please address all three questions - and start talking to me using Bible verses, so I can get into the reasoning of a Catholic view. I am deeply interested in this because I like to explore why certain views exist and have their being and I have never had the opportunity to speak to a Catholic about this. So thank you for answering these questions. These three questions directly impact your primary question. Shalom
Ok sorry about the mistake, but again while I like talking to you, you seem not to discuss together with me?
I gave you post #109 about why Michel is the Son of God - no need for prophet help - Bible verses are clear.
(1) Explain using Scripture how Michael is an cherub.
(if you can't use Scripture alone - I allow you to quote the CCC back to me - as it seems Catholic authority ?)
The the Catechism of the Catholic Church even celebrate Michael as an angel. OK where does the Bible say you can celebrate feasts dedicated to angels? Leviticus 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD,
Even Jews add feasts to their torah, like Esther which is OK in a way for Jews.
Show me Bible verse explaining Michael as a cherub.
Nearly all verses only show angels as messengers "malak" so their creature substance as :cherub: is rarely mentioned.
Also I would like some feedback about questions I asked before:
(2) If Jesus is doings are written in prophecy, and all prophecy is 100% accurate, does this fact remove the struggle of Jesus as a human? Discuss.
My answer is no, but you want me to say Jesus could never have sinned. Only The Father and the Son and the HS can show independent powers, but they refuse to do so for selfish reasons as the word independent implies. They wish instead to unite perfectly as a Family of love. You can read my discussion on this in previous posts.
If God knows your future and writes your name down in the Lamb's book of life a billions years before you are born, how does this fact remove free will, daily struggles with faith and fragile communion of the human to God, before He dies and locks in his salivation? What you are asking me is to remove all the fragile nature of a human struggle and stick to what God said.
If Jesus as both 100% man and 100% deity, could never have sinned, than "independent" as a theme, cannot exist. Therefore free will cannot exist. Breaking faith cannot exist, and therefore sin cannot exist. Get my point? Creatures are always dependent upon God. I have discussed this also before, but no discussion from you on this theme?
(3) Discuss a deeper look into the nature of Christ. Where did His powers of divinity come from?
My answer is from faith - he asked His Father to empower Him with the Father's divine presence, Jesus did not use His own Divine power, or His own divine substance. To do so would be "independent" and this is defined by me as a "sin".
Instead Jesus had to be "dependent" upon His Father. Just as humans are always "dependent" upon Jesus. Read my previous discussions on this too, but no discussions from you?
Also I showed you two CCC about how Jesus has two wills inside of Him. Can you explain that to me?
You read the passage I suppose by refused to comment:
CCC: "The Son of God . worked with human hands; he thought with a human mind. He acted with a human will, and with a human heart he loved. Born of the Virgin Mary, he has truly been made one of us, like to us in all things except sin.[GS 22 § 2] [2599]
OK if Jesus was truly human, I like this CCC, why couldn't he have sinned?
Did His deity inside him talk to His humanity? Or did He read the Word and knew by Faith he could live a sinless life?
The latter answer is more impressive to me. Something I can aspire to.
CCC: "
475 Similarly, at the sixth ecumenical council, Constantinople III in 681, the Church confessed that Christ possesses two wills and two natural operations, divine and human. They are not opposed to each other, but co-operate in such a way that the Word made flesh willed humanly in obedience to his Father all that he had decided divinely with the Father and the Holy Spirit for our salvation.[Cf. Council of Constantinople III (681): DS 556-559] Christ's human will "does not resist or oppose but rather submits to his divine and almighty will."[Council of Constantinople III: DS 556] [2008,2824]
Oh, so the deity inside did talked to the humanity inside. Oh well than Jesus was not an example for us as a human, he had an advantage over us. A perfect loving Son of God yes, but not a personal Son of God who knew our infirmities and yet was without sin - because he had perfect faith in His Father, which while is available to all humans, we doubt and stumble over words of faith.
I will stop here with three questions, please address all three questions - and start talking to me using Bible verses, so I can get into the reasoning of a Catholic view. I am deeply interested in this because I like to explore why certain views exist and have their being and I have never had the opportunity to speak to a Catholic about this. So thank you for answering these questions. These three questions directly impact your primary question. Shalom
rob
Active member
I seem not to like CCC 475.
You said Jesus was like us in all points but was without sin, is false because Jesus has two wills and humans have one will, so that is a massive difference between humans
In my view Jesus must (I assume) had one will and therefore two natures, but one nature (the Deity nature) was never used - and the only example of His deity used independently was at the transfiguration when He came before His Father - the two deities met each other in glory - this is a rare unselfish view of independent deities being together but not acting independently - does this make sense to readers?
Some Bible verses for my view? Hmm?
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Some scholars like Adam Clarke a Methodist is often well received by me, as my Electronic Bible Interlinear has his Bible Commentary and Clarke writes well at times. Jeff Benner is another scholar I like for His Hebrew input and his research into Paleo Hebrew, the Hebrew Moses wrote.
My understanding of this passage is Jesus became a servant, using His humanity only to reach Divinity through faith - the same way we as humans can - He did not use His own deity to talk to the Father, or show His Deity can be independent of the Father's Deity.
Catholics write in their CCC that Eloihym is one "el" and one "adam" .
I feel this is wrong. So let's discuss this.
I see Elohiym as "three els" and "three adam" This shows as Oscar's razor the basic lowest level of love, as three fundamental principles of love - the Parental love and the Child Like Love. The Beloved and the Lover. Or
the Provider Love, the Responding love, and the Child like love, all three words confirmed by my Hebrew English translator prophet.
The English term for "els" both Catholics and SDA use is "Godhead"
The English term for "adam" is "Deity" for Elohiym and "human" for Homo Sapiens.
Isa 2:10 ¶ Enter into the rock,
Rock here is tsuwr a simile of the Father. How is this achieved? by faith.
So this implies to me Jesus entered into His Father the same way.
Not necessary for two wills. You just ask for this daily via prayer. Simple.
Isa 1:13 it is iniquity"aven" , even the solemn meeting.
Some Hebrew words "like aven" explain the corruption of the human "adam"
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
No mention of two wills in a human, only one. We reason to YHWH.
Catholics use CCC words to describe elohiym as one YHWH, when the Bible talks of TWO YHWH?
Gen 19:24 is a classic example of two YHWH, the word YH and WH tell you there are two Deity.
Catholic CCC also describe the HS as a YHWH, and I have never found this to be the case in the Bible.
Notice I can discuss the Bible Hebrew as it reads without use of Ellen White or other human traditions.
I welcome you to answer my questions using Bible verses. Shalom
PS: You will notice I prefer OT Hebrew than NT in a translation of Hebrew into Greek. Adds to the confusion.
You said Jesus was like us in all points but was without sin, is false because Jesus has two wills and humans have one will, so that is a massive difference between humans
In my view Jesus must (I assume) had one will and therefore two natures, but one nature (the Deity nature) was never used - and the only example of His deity used independently was at the transfiguration when He came before His Father - the two deities met each other in glory - this is a rare unselfish view of independent deities being together but not acting independently - does this make sense to readers?
Some Bible verses for my view? Hmm?
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Some scholars like Adam Clarke a Methodist is often well received by me, as my Electronic Bible Interlinear has his Bible Commentary and Clarke writes well at times. Jeff Benner is another scholar I like for His Hebrew input and his research into Paleo Hebrew, the Hebrew Moses wrote.
My understanding of this passage is Jesus became a servant, using His humanity only to reach Divinity through faith - the same way we as humans can - He did not use His own deity to talk to the Father, or show His Deity can be independent of the Father's Deity.
Catholics write in their CCC that Eloihym is one "el" and one "adam" .
I feel this is wrong. So let's discuss this.
I see Elohiym as "three els" and "three adam" This shows as Oscar's razor the basic lowest level of love, as three fundamental principles of love - the Parental love and the Child Like Love. The Beloved and the Lover. Or
the Provider Love, the Responding love, and the Child like love, all three words confirmed by my Hebrew English translator prophet.
The English term for "els" both Catholics and SDA use is "Godhead"
The English term for "adam" is "Deity" for Elohiym and "human" for Homo Sapiens.
Isa 2:10 ¶ Enter into the rock,
Rock here is tsuwr a simile of the Father. How is this achieved? by faith.
So this implies to me Jesus entered into His Father the same way.
Not necessary for two wills. You just ask for this daily via prayer. Simple.
Isa 1:13 it is iniquity"aven" , even the solemn meeting.
Some Hebrew words "like aven" explain the corruption of the human "adam"
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
No mention of two wills in a human, only one. We reason to YHWH.
Catholics use CCC words to describe elohiym as one YHWH, when the Bible talks of TWO YHWH?
Gen 19:24 is a classic example of two YHWH, the word YH and WH tell you there are two Deity.
Catholic CCC also describe the HS as a YHWH, and I have never found this to be the case in the Bible.
Notice I can discuss the Bible Hebrew as it reads without use of Ellen White or other human traditions.
I welcome you to answer my questions using Bible verses. Shalom
PS: You will notice I prefer OT Hebrew than NT in a translation of Hebrew into Greek. Adds to the confusion.
Snap out of it Rob, please. I and anyone else reading this KNOW you are not Trinitarian. It's pointless for you to try to articulate why you don't agree with the Nicene Creed / Trinity Doctrine. I have acknowledged this very openly and directly. So PLEASE STOP.
Your task is simply to explain why something God said was impossible in over 150 places in Sacred Scripture IS POSSIBLE because Ellen White said it was possible. THAT is my only question to you Rob. Please stay focused. You are without question deep in the Dunning Kruger effect here. Snap out of it.
rob
Active member
Greetings Grunion
How can I agree or disagree with the Nicene Creed if nobody is willing to talk to me?
I am some things I find in the CCC are nice, but since nobody explains the CCC terms, how am I supposed to know either way?
I have an open mind and I see a lot of common ground in the CCC I have read, so why are you so unwilling to discuss your view?
As for your question, which is not a question, how do you expect me to react?
If the question is "Could have Jesus-YHWH demonstrated his independent powers of deity to the world" the answer is yes, He could have but Jesus refused, because independence from God as your source of dependence, is a sin.
I do not read anywhere where this disagrees with Bible statements or Bible prophecy.
And you have not discussed anything about your reasoning to me.
----------------
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias that describes the systematic tendency of people with low ability in a specific area to give overly positive assessments of this ability.
Are you saying I have low cognitive ability and think highly of myself over and above you?
I cannot fathom your fancy words, and no - my learning is from God and Him only - and I do not think of myself as high in any way - I have spectrum borderline Aspergus so my thinking is different to normal people - I explore and think deep than most - but it does not mean I am not an ordinary human.
You need to talk more kindly.
Shalom
How can I agree or disagree with the Nicene Creed if nobody is willing to talk to me?
I am some things I find in the CCC are nice, but since nobody explains the CCC terms, how am I supposed to know either way?
I have an open mind and I see a lot of common ground in the CCC I have read, so why are you so unwilling to discuss your view?
As for your question, which is not a question, how do you expect me to react?
If the question is "Could have Jesus-YHWH demonstrated his independent powers of deity to the world" the answer is yes, He could have but Jesus refused, because independence from God as your source of dependence, is a sin.
I do not read anywhere where this disagrees with Bible statements or Bible prophecy.
And you have not discussed anything about your reasoning to me.
----------------
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias that describes the systematic tendency of people with low ability in a specific area to give overly positive assessments of this ability.
Are you saying I have low cognitive ability and think highly of myself over and above you?
I cannot fathom your fancy words, and no - my learning is from God and Him only - and I do not think of myself as high in any way - I have spectrum borderline Aspergus so my thinking is different to normal people - I explore and think deep than most - but it does not mean I am not an ordinary human.
You need to talk more kindly.
Shalom
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I'm talking to you.
I'd be happy to do that Rob but we have to have a starting point and if we can't agree on the most basic of God's attributes it's pointless to leap over the basics and start exchanging beliefs apart from a common starting point. This is why I'm insisting we start on a simple and basic fundamental - i.e. is the great God of Heaven all that Sacred Scripture attributes to God - or, were the Biblical writers sometimes taking unauthorized liberties with what they said - i.e. did the Prophet Daniel make inaccurate statements, attributing attributes to God that God in fact didn't by Nature possess?
That is why I'm pressuring you on your beliefs about the Book of Daniel, specifically Chapter two, at the end where Daniel tells the King that the interpretation of the dream was absolute (not conditional). I'm saying that Daniel 2 is explicit that failure by the Christ was IMPOSSIBLE. Arius, James White, Uriah Smith and Ellen White all maintained that failure WAS POSSIBLE. I'm asking you to walk me through how Ellen White can repudiate God - this is a reasonable request.
No, I'm saying that. I'm saying you don't recognize you are lacking in the basic doctrines of Christianity - particularly the Impeccability of God.
I'm using very basic words - you don't realize it yet but you are indeed acting as if Ellen White is a Pope and you yourself have promoted yourself to papal authority.
If I've offended you I'm sorry - that's not my intention. I only want us to stay on track and focus on the elementary part of this discussion. After we get that out of the way I'm happy to move on and address your other questions / ideas.