Chief
Chief of Sinners.
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Chief of Sinners.
Seventh-day Adventists believe in one God comprised of three co-eternal Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, who work together in unity. This belief, known as the Trinity, is rooted deeply in Scripture even though the term "Trinity" is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible.
- Biblical Insights on the Trinity: - The Bible illustrates the Trinity through various scripture passages, like the baptism of Jesus where all three members were present and active.
- God the Father: - God the Father is seen as the supreme overseer and sustainer of life. He led the creation of the world through the Son and loves humanity with an everlasting love, demonstrated by sending Jesus for our salvation.
- God the Son: - God the Son, Jesus Christ, is our Saviour. He became human to connect with us, offering His life for our redemption. He continues to be our advocate and friend.
- God the Holy Spirit: - The Holy Spirit is our guide and comforter, leading us into truth and helping us to live righteous lives. He works within us to fulfil God's purpose.
- The Working of the Trinity: - The Trinity operates like a unified team with a common mission of salvation, each member fulfilling distinct roles. God the Father provides love and mercy, God the Son offers grace and redemption, and God the Holy Spirit renews and guides us towards eternal life.
rob
Active member
Why do we now adopt the word "trinity" when it is based entirely on the traditions and precepts of men?
A SDA person commented negatively on my best preacher Pastor Randy Skeete
so I had to reply to this "triangle god" in his mock.
I agree that the word "trinity" should not be used in SDA circles, but now its a part of our creed?
I was also interested in the 23 minute sermon of Pastor Skeete about the Surrender process.
The sermon took me 4 hours to watch and discuss, so I invite you all into the real topic study that exposes my own personal experience in surrender and what this means.
Both threads are listed on the same link: https://spiritualsprings.proboards.com/thread/116/surrender-god-sermon-pastor-skeete
A SDA person commented negatively on my best preacher Pastor Randy Skeete
so I had to reply to this "triangle god" in his mock.
I agree that the word "trinity" should not be used in SDA circles, but now its a part of our creed?
I was also interested in the 23 minute sermon of Pastor Skeete about the Surrender process.
The sermon took me 4 hours to watch and discuss, so I invite you all into the real topic study that exposes my own personal experience in surrender and what this means.
Both threads are listed on the same link: https://spiritualsprings.proboards.com/thread/116/surrender-god-sermon-pastor-skeete
rob
Active member
You did NOT read the link did you?
JEHOVAH’S inspired written Word, the Bible, tells us that “God is love.” It says not merely that love is one of his many admirable qualities but that “God is love.” (1 John 4:8) It is his dominant quality, his most important one. Jehovah does not just possess love—he is the personification of it. How wonderful it is to know that the Creator of the universe and of all living things is a God of love! Everything he does is guided by that quality.
Rob: How quick to add Creator of angels so Jehovah can love them.
Question: How can Jehovah demonstrate love and loving while alone?
Answer: Your JW GOD can't.
Must get lonely being all alone?
Ge 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
What is this saying? Why is Jehovah doing this?
Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
A JW bible uses "Godship rather than Godhead" whatever that means?
What is GOD telling us about God? There is duality of powers !
You do not accept this do you? I pity you, like the Muslim, with only an Allah
like the Jew with only a YHWH.
And with you scribes you translate poorly
Ps 1:1 ¶ Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Terrible translation
Ge 42:23 And they knew not that Joseph understood them; for he spake unto them by an interpreter.
Better translation
Here is the meaning of this Hebrew word
Ps 1:1 ¶ Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the"bad-translators"
Ge 42:23 And they knew not that Joseph understood them; for he spake unto them by an good-translator
Sometimes / often Hebrew words have opposite meanings in their context, Something a translator never tells you
Now here is an interesting verse
Isa 28:14 ¶ Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye "bad -translating" men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
SO some scribes interpret the torah badly on purpose
What is Jesus answer to these people
Mt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Let them alone. You can't argue with them, They think they are right.
Shalom
rob
Active member
I read the Bible in Hebrew, so there is no confusion. None what so ever.
Harder in the NT in Greek. I read the NT in Hebrew too.
I use a Jeff Benner lexicon to help me.
You fail to see my point because your eyes cannot see. Ask God to open them.
Now you want me to stop using JW commentaries?
I read the Hebrew words in a Single English word as Jeff Benner taught me.
Try reading His Genesis book - though we don't always agree.
I also use our Hebrew English translator Ellen White.
She is 100% perfect in her translation of Hebrew into English.
Hope this helps you
rob
Active member
The angel said the one true "theos" , Elohiym, not the one true "pater" Father.
JW equate so many words as the same meanings ? Why is that?
Adown = Adonay = YHWH = Eloah = Shadday = Elohiym = El = JEHOVAH
Explain why the Hebrew has 7 words all different meanings but the JW has one word meaning for all seven?
rob
Active member
Who is twisting? No me
I will do one of the Hebrew words for you : Elohiym
"So why does Elohim have a plural suffix if it is numerically singular with a singular verb and singular adjective? It turns out there is a special type of plural in Hebrew that has a plural suffix even though it is numerically singular with a singular verb and singular adjective. These nouns are called majestic plurals" Gordon, 2003
"It is worth noting that the word Elohim is not always a majestic plural. When referring to the pagan gods, the term Elohim is usually a numerical plural."(Gordon, 2003
This person you quoted to me, twist Hebrew words to suit context he does not like.
Elohiym is always numerically plural. but in the case of the true refers to "family powers"
Pagan deities also have "family powers"
"Certainly this does not mean that YHWH made Moses into a god, but rather that he would speak to Pharaoh with authority through Aaron who would serve as his mouth-piece in the way that the prophets serve as the mouth-pieces of YHWH. In any event, there is clearly nothing multiple about Moses, even though he was made an Elohim to Pharaoh (Gordon, 2003)."
Moses was the brother of Aaron and the sibling of Miriam. They are all family powers. Gordon is speaking falsehood.
"Here we see three pagan deities each of which is referred to as an Elohim. Obviously the book of Kings is not saying that any of these false deities is a "great God". On the contrary, the verse goes on to rebuke the Israelites for worshipping them. The meaning is that the Sidonians, Moabites, and Ammonites looked upon their deities as great Gods and in this instance Scripture employs the terms used by the pagans themselves to refer to their own deities. At the same time we must observe that Ashtoret, Kemosh, and Milkom are each referred to as Elohim even though there is nothing multiple about any one of them."
Again Gordon is wrong. Evey read TWO Babylons by Hislop? Pagan deities all belong to family powers.
(2)Ge 35:7 And he built there an altar, and called the place Elbethel: because there ELOHIM (with plural verb) appeared unto him, when he fled from the face of his brother.
" But the basic question still remains. Why are there these three instances in the Tanach where Elohim receives a plural verb?"
So Gordon admits that the word elohiym is a family power but refuses to admit this.
rob
Active member
"Let us remember that the rule of Elohim receiving a singular verb does actually work in some 2000 instances and the three verses just mentioned are the only exceptions in the entire Tanach. ...Could it be that these three anomalous verses hint at some great mystery about the paradoxical and contradictory nature of God? Or is there a much simpler, linguistic explanation?"
Notice Elohiym in action:
Ge 3:22 ¶ And ELOHIYM said, Behold, the man is become as one of US, to know good and evil:
Notice it does not say ME, it says US
Adam and Eve was a family power. Now they become a false elohiym power because they know good and evil
Shalom
Notice Elohiym in action:
Ge 3:22 ¶ And ELOHIYM said, Behold, the man is become as one of US, to know good and evil:
Notice it does not say ME, it says US
Adam and Eve was a family power. Now they become a false elohiym power because they know good and evil
Shalom
rob
Active member
Question: There are three ways to become family
(1) blood descendant - Ge 4:1 ¶ And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived,
(2) Adopted in - Ru 1:16 And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:
(3) As comrade - 2Sa 23:8 ¶ These be the names of the mighty men whom David had:
Jehovah has to be able to functionally demonstrate all these functions of a family otherwise this verse is false:
Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Now if you have an Angel as Jehovah's Spirit-Son, the angel is only adopted in, and a comrade, but NOT a blood descendant.
Since man is made in Jehovah's image, all functions mankind does Jehovah also has to do ALSO
The JW has no YHWH-Son.
The JW only has a angel, an adopted son, one among a billion. Not in the class as a One and Only YHWH-Son
Shalom
(1) blood descendant - Ge 4:1 ¶ And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived,
(2) Adopted in - Ru 1:16 And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:
(3) As comrade - 2Sa 23:8 ¶ These be the names of the mighty men whom David had:
Jehovah has to be able to functionally demonstrate all these functions of a family otherwise this verse is false:
Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Now if you have an Angel as Jehovah's Spirit-Son, the angel is only adopted in, and a comrade, but NOT a blood descendant.
Since man is made in Jehovah's image, all functions mankind does Jehovah also has to do ALSO
The JW has no YHWH-Son.
The JW only has a angel, an adopted son, one among a billion. Not in the class as a One and Only YHWH-Son
Shalom
Forty scriptures which tell a different story than that of "God the Son."
| LORD God, the Father (Jehovah) | Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God | ||
|---|---|---|---|
| Num. 23:19 | God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? | Mat. 16:13 | When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? |
| Job 33:12 | Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man. | Jhn. 14:28 | Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. |
| Jhn. 4:24 | God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. | Luk. 24:39 | Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. |
| Isa. 40:28 | Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding. | Jhn. 4:6 | Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour. |
| 1 Tim. 1:17 | Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. | Mat. 8:34 | And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts. |
| 1 Tim. 6:16 | Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. | 1Th. 4:14 | For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. |
| Mat. 22:32 | I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. | Rom. 14:9 | For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. |
| Jer. 10:10 | But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation. | Rom. 5:6 | For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. |
| 1 Sam. 15:29 | And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. | 1Tim. 2:5 | For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; |
| Jam. 1:13 | Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man | Mat. 4:1 | Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. |
| Jhn. 1:18 | No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. | Mrk. 5:6 | But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, |
| 1Jhn. 4:12 | No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. | Luk. 8:28 | When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not. |
| Eze. 28:2 | Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: | Jhn. 20:17 | Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. |
| 2 Pet. 1:17 | For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. | Mat. 28:10 | Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me. |
| Ps. 50:2 | If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof. | Mrk. 11:12 | And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: |
| Jhn. 5:37 | And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. | Mrk. 15:34-35 | And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias. |
| Gal. 6:7 | Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. | Luk. 22:63 | And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him. |
| Ps. 121:2-4 | My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth. He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber. Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep. | Luk. 8:22-23 | Now it came to pass on a certain day, that he went into a ship with his disciples: and he said unto them, Let us go over unto the other side of the lake. And they launched forth. But as they sailed he fell asleep: and there came down a storm of wind on the lake; and they were filled with water, and were in jeopardy. |
| Exo. 33:20 | And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. | John 6:19 | So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid. |
| Isa. 46:9-10 | Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: | Mrk. 13:32 | But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. |
rob
Active member
Polyglot , not sure what your presentation is posing as a theory of faith? And you don't like me jumping to hasty conclusions, so please tell me plainly what you are saying about Jesus Christ.
I see Jesus as fully divine as a member of the divine family of Elohiym. He came to earth clad in humanity and lived by faith in His Most High Provider, as faith requires, and as any creature has to. Jesus came to earth as a creature, in humanity and had to live under the moral laws of faith, like any creature or human has to. He could NOT use His divinity as a power independently of the Godhead, otherwise that would be missing, a sin. That is my two pennies on some themes. This might explain why some verses seem strange to us, when understanding the nature of Christ as both Divine and clad with Humanity. Shalom
I see Jesus as fully divine as a member of the divine family of Elohiym. He came to earth clad in humanity and lived by faith in His Most High Provider, as faith requires, and as any creature has to. Jesus came to earth as a creature, in humanity and had to live under the moral laws of faith, like any creature or human has to. He could NOT use His divinity as a power independently of the Godhead, otherwise that would be missing, a sin. That is my two pennies on some themes. This might explain why some verses seem strange to us, when understanding the nature of Christ as both Divine and clad with Humanity. Shalom
To be clear, nowhere in inspiration can the term "God the Son" be found. It is not in the Bible. It is not in the writings of Ellen White. It is not in the writings of William Foy, who was also an Adventist prophet (a rather neglected fact, even though his writings appear among the words of the pioneers on the EGW CD).
A. T. Jones, who apostatized in the manner of Kellogg and his Trinitarian views, began to publish the term as of 1900. William Prescott clearly accepted it, along with the Trinity, as of 1929 in his writings. E. J. Waggoner, who also apostatized, had published Trinitarian views as early as 1894. Others favoring a "God the Son" expression included: E. W. Farnsworth (1909), LeRoy Froom, and Walter Read (1952).
That is nearly the full list per what is obtainable from the "Words of the Adventist Pioneers" on the Ellen White CD. I say "nearly" because there are a couple of others which published the expression as quoted from the Catholic Catechism or elsewhere and which were not clear to me whether they were clearly disagreeing or were agreeing with it.
Other pioneers, such as Uriah Smith and James White, clearly opposed the concept of "God the Son." Most of those whose articles are published on the CD never used the term.
Regarding Divinity
It should be realized that divinity is not the same as deity. Angels of God are divine, but they are not deities. Jesus was divine, but this does not elevate him to being God.
Consider, for example, Ellen White's own usage of "divine" as applied to heavenly angels.
Ellen White said:
Ellen White clearly references angels as "divine," naming Gabriel in specific as being "divine." We know that Gabriel is neither Christ nor God. So divinity cannot be equated with deity.
Christ is divine. But Christ is not God.
I agree that Christ is part of the entire divine (elohim) family in Heaven, as are Gabriel and all the angelic host.
rob
Active member
Greetings Polyglot
There are 397 results for EGW "divine agencies" - an agency is like a medium, something that carries something - not something that has something on it's own
There are no results for "divine angels"
There are no results for "God the Son" Hmm?
There is no result for "God LORD" or the Hebrew terms 0430 03068 either
It is silly to call one Elohiym Son, but OK for the term Son Elohiym.
That like calling me Rob Thompson, but I am not known as Thompson Rob.
I do not find any messages saying the cherubims are divine, as only Elohiym is Divine.
However cherubims who functions as messengers can impart Divine power through faith, just as any special creature can, and this is termed an agency of divine power.
GRC 5.1 (God’s Remnant Church (The Remnant Church))
... saved, He commissions His angels to render divine help to every soul ...
The average SDA does not understand the EGW use of the term "medium" and "agency". Such terms describe things that are carried.
Divine power is available to all special creatures by faith - simply by asking - you receive from Elohiym Power.
See Psalm 119:86 All thy commandments are faithful.
You acknowledge angels as a part of the family of God, but you embrace a broad use of the term family.
My two pennies is Elohiym is a Divine Family with a Provider, Responder and Collector of Love - much the same as similes to earth as a Father, Mother and Son as personalities of Love.
Humans who by faith in Jesus, are clones and adopted into his Divine nature become higher than angels that are sinless, we are to become a special group of messengers around the throne, knowing both good and evil and overcoming through faith in the blood of the Lamb our Saviour. This makes three distinct word meanings of Family - the God head family - the adopted family and the broader family who are sinless created creatures. Shalom
There are 397 results for EGW "divine agencies" - an agency is like a medium, something that carries something - not something that has something on it's own
There are no results for "divine angels"
There are no results for "God the Son" Hmm?
There is no result for "God LORD" or the Hebrew terms 0430 03068 either
It is silly to call one Elohiym Son, but OK for the term Son Elohiym.
That like calling me Rob Thompson, but I am not known as Thompson Rob.
I do not find any messages saying the cherubims are divine, as only Elohiym is Divine.
However cherubims who functions as messengers can impart Divine power through faith, just as any special creature can, and this is termed an agency of divine power.
GRC 5.1 (God’s Remnant Church (The Remnant Church))
... saved, He commissions His angels to render divine help to every soul ...
The average SDA does not understand the EGW use of the term "medium" and "agency". Such terms describe things that are carried.
Divine power is available to all special creatures by faith - simply by asking - you receive from Elohiym Power.
See Psalm 119:86 All thy commandments are faithful.
You acknowledge angels as a part of the family of God, but you embrace a broad use of the term family.
My two pennies is Elohiym is a Divine Family with a Provider, Responder and Collector of Love - much the same as similes to earth as a Father, Mother and Son as personalities of Love.
Humans who by faith in Jesus, are clones and adopted into his Divine nature become higher than angels that are sinless, we are to become a special group of messengers around the throne, knowing both good and evil and overcoming through faith in the blood of the Lamb our Saviour. This makes three distinct word meanings of Family - the God head family - the adopted family and the broader family who are sinless created creatures. Shalom